Mediensammlung "Interview Ruth Kogut 2013"
AGFl_0109
Video 00:39:24
20.07.2013
Weiden in der Oberpfalz
Weiden in der Oberpfalz
Konzentrationslager Stutthof
Ghetto Litzmannstadt
Stadt Łódź
Stadt Warschau
Außenlager Mockethal-Zatzschke, Konzentrationslager Flossenbürg
Außenlager Dresden (Bernsdorf), Konzentrationslager Flossenbürg
Stadt Dresden
Konzentrationslager Auschwitz
Konzentrationslager Auschwitz II Birkenau
Konzentrationslager Flossenbürg
Ghetto Theresienstadt
Vernichtungslager Treblinka
Stadt Pirna
DP-Lager Landsberg
Ghetto Litzmannstadt
Stadt Łódź
Stadt Warschau
Außenlager Mockethal-Zatzschke, Konzentrationslager Flossenbürg
Außenlager Dresden (Bernsdorf), Konzentrationslager Flossenbürg
Stadt Dresden
Konzentrationslager Auschwitz
Konzentrationslager Auschwitz II Birkenau
Konzentrationslager Flossenbürg
Ghetto Theresienstadt
Vernichtungslager Treblinka
Stadt Pirna
DP-Lager Landsberg
Interview mit der KZ-Überlebenden Ruth Kogut
- Ankunft im Außenlager Dresden - Arbeits- und Lebensbedingungen
- Kontakt mit dem Vater - "Morgen wird es besser sein" als Lebensmotto
- Bombardierung Dresdens - Verlegung ins Lager Pirna und schreckliche Hygienebedingungen
- Todesmarsch nach Theresienstadt im März 1945 - Exkurs: Tod der Großeltern im Lager
- Arbeit bei der Herstellung von Munition im Außenlager Dresden (Bernsdorf)
- Kennenlernen des Ehemanns - Versuch der Emigration nach Palästina und Aufenthalt im DP-Camp Landsberg
- Emigration in die USA - Tod der Eltern im Jahr 1990
- Exkurs: Schlimmste Zeit im Lager in Pirna - Gerüchte im Ghetto über KZs und Gaskammern
- Fokussierung auf die Zukunft im Gegensatz zum Ehemann - Erinnerung an positive Erlebnisse statt an schreckliche
- Familiengründung in den USA
- Exkurs: Antisemitismus und Ausgrenzung von Juden in Polen vor dem Krieg
- Weitere Schicksalsschläge: Sturm Sandy im Jahr 2012 und Tod des Ehemanns bei einem Autounfall
Urheber | Medienwerkstatt Franken |
---|---|
Quellenangaben | KZ-Gedenkstätte Flossenbürg / Medienwerkstatt Franken |
Nutzung | Nur mit Einverständnis und Nennung von Archiv bzw. Urheber |
Darstellungsform | Interview, Rohmaterial |
Interviewer | Michael Aue |
Kamera | Günter Wittmann |
Untertitel von Datei "AGFl_AV.22.0900.mp4"
00:00:00 | IV: Es ist Samstag, der 20. Juli 2013, wir sind im Moment in Weiden in der Oberpfalz im Hotel Admira.![]() |
00:00:09 | Mein Name ist Michael Aue von der Medienwerkstatt Franken![]() |
00:00:12 | und wir führen jetzt ein Gespräch mit Ruth Kogut,![]() |
00:00:16 | die in den USA heute lebt, die am 07.09.1928 in Polen als Tochter einer jüdischen Familie geboren wurde![]() |
00:00:25 | und später in einem Dresdner Außenlager ah inhaftiert war.![]() |
00:00:51 | So if we are talking now, it's not only about the time in the camp.![]() |
00:00:55 | We are also interested a little bit ah where you are born, how you grown up,![]() |
00:01:00 | about your family, ah sorry,![]() |
00:01:04 | RK: And my..![]() |
00:01:05 | IV: Sorry, can we start again?![]() |
00:01:07 | RK: I was born in Lodz, my mother's family all my, all her sisters and brothers they were ten kids,![]() |
00:01:13 | they all live in the same city, ah I started school, when I was five or six I don't remember {laughing}.![]() |
00:01:23 | I remember that in 1939 I had the normal life, family life, very close to my grandfather,![]() |
00:01:31 | very close and he had lots of grandchildren, I was his favorite {laughing}.![]() |
00:01:38 | Ah I remember coming back 1939, we went away, always went away to the country for fresh air for the kids,![]() |
00:01:47 | the kids should have not in the city, should be summertime in the country and people were talking about war,![]() |
00:01:54 | coming war and everybody says: "No, it's not going to happen. It's absolut not gonna happen."![]() |
00:02:00 | It happened, we came back in 1939 I was ten going on eleven, on my birthday,![]() |
00:02:09 | which is September 7th, the Germans were there already {breathing}.![]() |
00:02:15 | And my life changed for, for not for the better {laughing}, not for the better {laughing}.![]() |
00:02:21 | Ah I think my father ran away, because I don't know why, all the men ran away from Lodz![]() |
00:02:28 | which is, was the best city, because it was called Litzmannstadt and belonged to the German..![]() |
00:02:33 | And he went to Warsaw and was, the Warsaw was bombed completely, most of the men, were, ran away to Russia.![]() |
00:02:42 | My father said, "I am not going to Russia, I have a family home, that I am going back to Lodz."![]() |
00:02:47 | So he came back to Lodz about, I don't know how many months later, we had to give all the radios away,![]() |
00:02:54 | bring it to a certain, telephone, you are not allowed to have telephone.![]() |
00:02:58 | My whole life changed completely, changed and we were told to leave our apartments, go to the ghetto,![]() |
00:03:08 | find a place to live, luckily, {breathing} my mother had a sister living in that area![]() |
00:03:16 | and she took us in, she took my, my grandparents in![]() |
00:03:20 | and she took my father and me and my mother, she gave us the kitchen to live in.![]() |
00:03:26 | My grandparents had the bedroom and my aunt and her family had the rest of the apartment.![]() |
00:03:33 | {Coughing} And they told, everybody has to go to work, if you don't go to work, you don't get food.![]() |
00:03:45 | We used to go to a place get food for whole month and live on it made su.., my mother made sure that we have enough for the month, we,![]() |
00:03:54 | she made rations for every day, little bit, eat a little bit,![]() |
00:03:58 | so we have enough for food.![]() |
00:04:00 | My father, well I don't remember when he started working, but after a, yeah, I worked,![]() |
00:04:05 | I was then, in 1941, I remember I was twelve, thirteen and I had to work and I worked in the Schwachstrom bei Maika.![]() |
00:04:19 | I had to do Maika, you know that, how you do, I don't know how you call it.![]() |
00:04:25 | Maika has layers and you have to, to separate layers, ah whatever![]() |
00:04:31 | ah that, that ah, that resort closed.![]() |
00:04:36 | They sent me to Sattler resort.![]() |
00:04:40 | I was sitting on a horse sewing heavy leather, with a special two needles going in and out, I was, that closed,![]() |
00:04:49 | now they have to find me another job, found me a job in a taylor shop,![]() |
00:04:55 | taylor shop and I did not like taylor shop, because the people, they were talking nasty, they were not nice people,![]() |
00:05:06 | low class people and every time I went home, I was crying: "I don't wanna work there, I don't wonna work there."![]() |
00:05:12 | But my father worked in a Metall resort {breathing}, he was a Meister there.![]() |
00:05:18 | Pepek's father, Pepek, you know Pepek Salomonovic?![]() |
00:05:24 | And, and Misha, worked in the same place, his father was an engineer.![]() |
00:05:31 | And we still live in the kitchen, I don't know where Pepek lived, but my father found a place above the kitchen![]() |
00:05:39 | that was empty and he asked somebody could he use that place, he built two apartments,![]() |
00:05:48 | one for Misha and his, his parents, and I lived next door.![]() |
00:05:53 | So Misha was, ah Pepek was then five and I was, I was fifteen already {laughing}.![]() |
00:05:58 | So we had a place to live, we went out of the kitchen, everything was ok![]() |
00:06:05 | and life was to me, I was a young child, and I was,![]() |
00:06:11 | I was with my parents and I was well taken care of,![]() |
00:06:15 | I did not, didn't realize how bad it could get.![]() |
00:06:19 | It was like a normal life in the ghetto, we couldn't get out from the ghetto,![]() |
00:06:23 | we didn't wanna go out of the ghetto {breathing}.![]() |
00:06:25 | Ah I worked, I was hungry, all the time I was hungry {breathing}.![]() |
00:06:33 | And then 19.., everything was actually alive and the ghetto was ah more or less..., we had, we had the calls to go out for the Appell![]() |
00:06:45 | and they took away lot of people from,![]() |
00:06:48 | of to, to camps, but I had a cousin that, that,![]() |
00:06:53 | I don't know what he was tracking for somebody and he knew exactly when they're coming,![]() |
00:06:58 | so he told us to, to hide.![]() |
00:07:05 | So we hid a few times and we were saved.![]() |
00:07:05 | {Breathing} Then came closing of the ghetto, {breathing} and my mother, I lived by my mother's mantra,![]() |
00:07:16 | she was always saying "tomorrow will be better."![]() |
00:07:19 | And my whole life is {breathing} {crying} tomorrow will be better.![]() |
00:07:46 | Always tomorrow will be better, that's my life, tomorrow will be better.![]() |
00:07:50 | It was better, took a long while, got better, but this is my mantra,![]() |
00:07:54 | that's how I lived: "Tomorrow will, will be better." {laughing} Thank you {breathing}.![]() |
00:08:02 | And we were in Metall resort too and they kept the whole group, for,![]() |
00:08:09 | we knew that we were going to, to a factory, work in a factory, they gave us overalls, navy blue, beautiful new overalls,![]() |
00:08:18 | we put on the overalls and the group was with children, that younger than I am {coughing}.![]() |
00:08:26 | Pepek was five, six, there was still a younger child there.![]() |
00:08:30 | So we were lucky, we were, our husbands, brothers or whoever, we saw every day {breathing} under the, ah, the barbed wires.![]() |
00:08:42 | Every morning I saw my father.![]() |
00:08:45 | Ah, we had a, we had ah brand new barrack when we came from Lodz, brand new![]() |
00:08:53 | and the shavings were still on the floor and we had showers and everybody from my city,![]() |
00:09:02 | the whole group was still very clean, we used to go..., cold water, cold water.![]() |
00:09:06 | What was, September? September.![]() |
00:09:10 | Ah, we went and we showered, we cleaned up.![]() |
00:09:14 | Ah the women still had their period, they used the shavings,![]() |
00:09:19 | but and then they gave us something in coffee or whatever that, that stopped the menstruation.![]() |
00:09:25 | IV: But you didn't know that at this time?![]() |
00:09:28 | RK: No, we didn't, I just stopped, it stopped.![]() |
00:09:30 | Ah we had a long, long barrack and everybody slept on the floor![]() |
00:09:38 | and we, then they send us a group Hungarian peo.., women from, group from, they were longer in the concentration camp,![]() |
00:09:50 | they had lice, they had lice.![]() |
00:09:53 | And ah that spread all over the place.![]() |
00:09:55 | So we had lice.![]() |
00:09:56 | That way the funny thing is, we used to, four o' clock in the morning they, they had Appell, yes?![]() |
00:10:03 | And we had to go, because they had to count, if any, anybody is missing, maybe somebody ran away {breathing}.![]() |
00:10:11 | And we waited at four o'clock in the morning the stars was still out![]() |
00:10:15 | and we waited for the Commandant to come and count us, count us.![]() |
00:10:21 | Okay, so came maybe two hours later after we stood, cold, rain, whatever it was,![]() |
00:10:28 | I, for me it was like a, I don't know what it was, I had my mother, I was fine.![]() |
00:10:33 | I was absolutely fine.![]() |
00:10:35 | And then, we went for breakfast. Breakfast, we had sli.., a big slice of bread, this thick, coffee {breathing}![]() |
00:10:46 | and we, nobody worked in that, in that camp, that we just waited for the factory to be ready to go to the factory.![]() |
00:10:54 | IV: And may I just interrrupt you?![]() |
00:10:56 | This camp was still close to Lodz? Or..?![]() |
00:10:59 | RK: No, no, because we were, Stutthof is on the Baltic Sea.![]() |
00:11:04 | IV: Ah this was Stutthof, we are talking about?![]() |
00:11:06 | RK: Stutthof, yeah.![]() |
00:11:08 | IV: Maybe you can also tell how did you get there?![]() |
00:11:10 | RK: By train.![]() |
00:11:11 | IV: By train.![]() |
00:11:12 | RK: Yeah, from, from, from, Birkenau.![]() |
00:11:17 | We were in Birkenau the short while, just a short while.![]() |
00:11:22 | They shaved my hair, they didn't shave my mother's, because there came an order, this group is not to have their hair shaved.![]() |
00:11:29 | But I, I was first in the line, they shaved my hair.![]() |
00:11:32 | That's so funny that you are asking me, because ah I didn't know how I look, when they took out, took me to the showers,![]() |
00:11:41 | there was a window that was half, and I could see myself, but I didn't know how I look like,![]() |
00:11:46 | so I had to wave my hand and I said: "Oh, what a nice bold hair" {laughing}.![]() |
00:11:51 | Then we saw, we went out of the shower, we met our, my father and my father was crying,![]() |
00:11:59 | he said: "Now, now I have a little boy." {laughing}![]() |
00:12:02 | I guess he always wanted a little boy {laughing}.![]() |
00:12:05 | Well, that was ah, then they took us, we stayed two weeks, because I told you, the![]() |
00:12:13 | new barracks so they probably were not ready for us, so we stayed there.![]() |
00:12:16 | But the funny thing is, that after we had our coffee, {breathing}![]() |
00:12:21 | we were talking about what we gonna do after the war.![]() |
00:12:24 | Okay, but, also we had to take of our clothing to, to kill the lice,![]() |
00:12:32 | which was funny, because we talking about what we gonna eat after the war and how much food we gonna have![]() |
00:12:39 | and new clothing that, my mother was always ah, a positive lady.![]() |
00:12:45 | She wa.., everything was positive, tomorrow will be better.![]() |
00:12:48 | That was the mantra she was telling me and that told, the whole group that was sitting near us. {breathing}![]() |
00:12:57 | The problem was that some people were very hungry, more than others![]() |
00:13:01 | and I think they probably ate some gras or whatever, so they had diarrhea.![]() |
00:13:07 | We all slept on the floor, we had that long walk to come in, go to the showers, to the bathrooms.![]() |
00:13:14 | But at night, we had to use that to sleep on, we had sick women, with diarrhea, going to the,![]() |
00:13:23 | to the women's and messing up everybody with their diarrhea.![]() |
00:13:28 | That was awful.![]() |
00:13:29 | Then we have a Ukraine ah woman from Ukraine, that was a mad woman, she used to go with her belt with the buckle out![]() |
00:13:39 | and hit everybody, she said: "Guilty or not guilty."![]() |
00:13:43 | And hit everybody, just like that {laughing}, guilty, not guilty.![]() |
00:13:46 | She, one day she caught me, I, I didn't see my father one day.![]() |
00:13:51 | And I asked somebody: "Did you see my father? Is he okay?"![]() |
00:13:55 | And she caught me talking to him, she took me to her room and she beat me up with that buckle,![]() |
00:14:01 | because I dared to ask for my father {breathing}.![]() |
00:14:08 | {Laughing} There was..., also for, for lunch we got the soup, a soup,![]() |
00:14:15 | so with the soup, there was a problem, big problem we had with the soup.![]() |
00:14:20 | We didn't know should we stay first in the line, maybe the soup will be too watery,![]() |
00:14:25 | if you.., maybe in the middle will be just right {laughing}.![]() |
00:14:28 | Maybe at the end will be nothing or very thick, that was the dilemma of the camp, okay?![]() |
00:14:36 | Sometimes, there wa.., there was ah soup left over so that all the children come and get more soup,![]() |
00:14:46 | but not through the door, you have to go through the window.![]() |
00:14:48 | I said: "I'm not going through the window."![]() |
00:14:51 | I said: "I cannot go through the door, I don't go through the window." {laughing}![]() |
00:14:56 | And I was hungry, okay.![]() |
00:14:59 | It was below me, I thought going through the window.![]() |
00:15:02 | And I didn't, my mother was angry with me, because she felt I need that extra soup.![]() |
00:15:09 | But she always, you know, we always managed to save one of, she had one bread![]() |
00:15:16 | and we took one bread that we have extra to, to throw over the barbed wires to my father,![]() |
00:15:25 | so he should have more.![]() |
00:15:27 | But nobody caught us there, really, nobody.![]() |
00:15:31 | Ah, I don't remember how long we stayed there, then we finally, finally we got to Dresden,![]() |
00:15:39 | got to Dresden and they took us to En.., Entlausung place.![]() |
00:15:46 | They really killed everything, everything, they gave us everything brand new, new clothes and we went to the factory.![]() |
00:15:55 | Factory was really much better than the concentration camp.![]() |
00:16:01 | We had bunk beds, but we had to share one, one bed, bunk bed, was very narrow,![]() |
00:16:10 | two people, so my, my, my mother and I decided {coughing} she should take the day, day time, work day time![]() |
00:16:18 | and I work night time, so we had the bed.![]() |
00:16:22 | And we had Luftwaffe, Luftwaffe was taken care of us, not Nazi.![]() |
00:16:26 | And we had one commander that used to, every morning he would come and say: "Good morning Damen und Herren." {laughing}![]() |
00:16:35 | And was, was really, was decent, every, every Sunday we had an outing,![]() |
00:16:41 | there was a little courtyard and I, I was able to see my father in the courtyard![]() |
00:16:47 | and ah my father looked like a bum on the Bowery.![]() |
00:16:52 | He had a beret and he had an old coat and he was wearing a manaszka![]() |
00:16:58 | that, that, the thing where we had the soup in, and he was talking to me:![]() |
00:17:04 | "You know, after the war," he said to me "I'm gonna buy a car."![]() |
00:17:10 | A car?![]() |
00:17:12 | Talking about a car {laughing}?![]() |
00:17:14 | And after, after we left, I said to my mother: "Do you think my fa.., dad is okay?![]() |
00:17:20 | Is he a little bit off?"![]() |
00:17:23 | "No", she said, "he meant it.![]() |
00:17:25 | He's going to buy a car."![]() |
00:17:26 | And he really, he did buy a car after the war.![]() |
00:17:29 | The first thing he did, was buy the Opel I told you about in the car. {Breathing}![]() |
00:17:35 | So I consider my life ah tragic, but also very lucky.![]() |
00:17:41 | I was with my parents, I remained with my parents and I still live with: "Tomorrow will be better."![]() |
00:17:48 | So anything that bad happened to me, I said it's temporary and tomorrow will be better.![]() |
00:17:56 | IV: But you should have been very strong, just to believe in this mantra and..![]() |
00:17:59 | RK: {Breathing} Yes, and, and now I also, if something goes wrong, I said: "Well, tomorrow'll be better."![]() |
00:18:06 | But it's, it's getting short and there will be no tomorrow, not too many tomorrows to be better.![]() |
00:18:12 | But, was for me, {breathing} I was very lucky considering my Schicksal, it was fantastic.![]() |
00:18:21 | I don't know, if it was God or my destiny or whatever.![]() |
00:18:26 | IV: So, can you remember how long you did stay in Dresden?![]() |
00:18:31 | RK: Which, did you, how long what?![]() |
00:18:33 | IV: How long you've been staying in Dresden in the camp?![]() |
00:18:37 | RK: I, I was ah, all together I was nine months between ah, ah between Auschwitz and Stutthof and Dresden.![]() |
00:18:50 | Then when Dresden was bombed, terribly bombed![]() |
00:18:55 | we, they took us to a little camp near by Pirna, was it Pirna?![]() |
00:19:00 | I'm not, don't know, miserable camp, it was so bad, that again they gave us lice,![]() |
00:19:06 | and not only lice, but lice in, in your.., that's different,![]() |
00:19:10 | was awful, was, that was the worst thing, that we ever had and ah then we had to go again to Entlausung,![]() |
00:19:18 | we worked a little bit, we went back to the factory a little bit and then, when the Russians came close,![]() |
00:19:25 | the Germans were running away with us.![]() |
00:19:28 | And they took us on the march, we marched, I think we stopped nearby Flossenbürg, probably.![]() |
00:19:36 | And we slept on the ground, was I think was March, was still freezing.![]() |
00:19:42 | Remember my, my eyebrows were icy, when I woke up, because we slept on the ground.![]() |
00:19:49 | And I probably there was not, no room anymore in Flossenbürg, so they took us with, took us as far as ah Theresienstadt {breathing}![]() |
00:19:59 | and many people died on the way.![]() |
00:20:03 | So that's ah, that's I, anything else you would you like to know?![]() |
00:20:10 | IV: So, what about your grandparents?![]() |
00:20:12 | Just have you been..![]() |
00:20:13 | RK: Oh, my grandparents, my fa.., my grandfather, I slept with him every night![]() |
00:20:18 | and one night, I, I woke up and I see they are covering the mirrow![]() |
00:20:24 | and I couldn't understand why they are covering the mirrow,![]() |
00:20:26 | I didn't realize that Jewish people, when someone dies, they have to cover the mirrow,![]() |
00:20:31 | I don't know why and I didn't know that.![]() |
00:20:33 | So, I woke up middle of the night and then I saw that my grandfather died,![]() |
00:20:39 | my grandmother died before that.![]() |
00:20:41 | She died of hunger.![]() |
00:20:44 | IV: And your grandfather was sick or also..?![]() |
00:20:47 | RK: My grandfather he died in 1943, he died.![]() |
00:20:58 | IV: And do you remember what kind of work did you do in Dresden in the factory?![]() |
00:21:03 | You, your mother, your father?![]() |
00:21:04 | RK: I used that, a machine, well the machine was going by itself.![]() |
00:21:07 | We, we made ah those big ah, I don't know what you call them, bombs,![]() |
00:21:15 | but they were not bombs for, for, no but this big on, on I, I was working on,![]() |
00:21:21 | what, what do you call it?![]() |
00:21:22 | I don't know what you call it, the machine..![]() |
00:21:24 | IV: Granaten, vielleicht waren es Granaten?![]() |
00:21:27 | RK: Yes, I was just watching it, when, I knew when to stop it, when to start and ah what part to do![]() |
00:21:35 | and I worked, yes {breathing}. We had a woman there, there was.., in the group,![]() |
00:21:46 | that was pregnant and she gave birth to a baby there.![]() |
00:21:49 | And they let the baby live.![]() |
00:21:55 | IV: And the baby survived?![]() |
00:21:57 | RK: Yes, they, they went to Israel, they went to Israel.![]() |
00:22:02 | IV: So and how, how the people ah treated you there in the camp?![]() |
00:22:08 | So, there were femal, female officers or male ones, soldiers they?![]() |
00:22:14 | RK: I, besides telling us to go out four o'clock in the morning, they didn't bother much,![]() |
00:22:20 | ah just the woman, that, that was taking care of us in the barracks, she was miserable,![]() |
00:22:26 | she was just a, just walking around, guilty or not guilty?![]() |
00:22:31 | Winna, czy nie winna? {speaking Polish}![]() |
00:22:33 | That's all what she was saying and hitting everybody with the buckle, with the buckle.![]() |
00:22:37 | {Breathing} Then I met my husband there in a Dresd.., in Theresienstadt, I met my husband and he had Typhoid,![]() |
00:22:47 | so I, I didn't know him, because he was from Warsaw and he was about six year older than I was.![]() |
00:23:00 | And that was a big difference then, and I was age 16, he was already 22.![]() |
00:23:07 | And when they, they closed Theresienstadt, they took us on a train and we.., supposedly we go to Israel.![]() |
00:23:16 | We're going to Israel, okay, go to Israel, but to go to Israel, we had to go first to Italy,![]() |
00:23:24 | stay in the camp in Italy, wait to go to Cyprus, Cyprus to go to Israel.![]() |
00:23:33 | Well, we come to Austria and there is an order, "there is no room for you in Italy", going back to Germany,![]() |
00:23:41 | put us in, in Schellenburg, no in ah, now I ah Landsberg, Landsberg {laughing},![]() |
00:23:52 | Schellenberg was where the Hotel was.![]() |
00:23:55 | Landsberg am Lech and..![]() |
00:23:59 | IV: It was a kind of DP-camp or?![]() |
00:24:01 | RK: Yeah, it's a DP-camp open, but free, you could co.., come and go,![]() |
00:24:06 | but they kept us together and my mot.., my mother took care of my husband then,![]() |
00:24:14 | because he was still very sick.![]() |
00:24:17 | And he left early, he had family in the United States,![]() |
00:24:22 | and he was writing to my mother, he was very close with my mother.![]() |
00:24:27 | And she wrote a letter to him I think, we have to go to Israel, we have no place else to go.![]() |
00:24:32 | He says: "No, don't go to Israel." He sent the letter back, "don't go to Israel, because it's bad there,![]() |
00:24:38 | you cannot get a job, there're no apartments available.![]() |
00:24:41 | I'll ask my", he said, "I'll ask my uncle, he'll sent papers for you."![]() |
00:24:46 | That's what happened, he sent papers and we came and I married him {laughing}.![]() |
00:24:53 | IV: What year?![]() |
00:24:54 | RK: 1950..![]() |
00:24:54 | IV: Maybe you tell just a little bit more, how you get to the States?![]() |
00:24:58 | RK: 1950.![]() |
00:24:59 | IV: 1950.![]() |
00:25:00 | RK: I came on a, on the boat, called General Hahn and this so just so happened,![]() |
00:25:08 | like my name Kogut means rooster, rooster, a rooster what is a "Hahn" in German, yes?![]() |
00:25:17 | I came on a Hahn to marry a Hahn.![]() |
00:25:22 | IV: {laughing} And your parents?![]() |
00:25:25 | RK: My par.., yes, they were with me all the time.![]() |
00:25:29 | And they died in 1990, nine months, nine months later, first my mother died, then nine months later my father died.![]() |
00:25:43 | They couldn't live without each other.![]() |
00:25:47 | But my mother kept everybody on the up {breathing}, everything was ![]() |
00:25:52 | "Tomorrow will be better, tomorrow will be better."![]() |
00:25:55 | I used to ask her in, in Stutthof...![]() |
00:25:59 | I said: "When the war is over, how many rols you gonna give me for breakfast?"![]() |
00:26:06 | So she was say: "Well, I give you one."![]() |
00:26:08 | I said: "One? I need four."![]() |
00:26:10 | You know what, after the, after the war was over, I was never hungry anymore.![]() |
00:26:14 | There was food, that was enough for me.![]() |
00:26:17 | And some people ate too much and they got s.., very sick.![]() |
00:26:22 | I stop eating: "Oh, there is enough food, wonderful, I don't need too much food."![]() |
00:26:28 | But I was bargaining with her, that "no, I don't want one role,![]() |
00:26:31 | I need at least four," I said to her. {breathing}![]() |
00:26:37 | IV: Going back in the, your thoughts to this time, what do you think,![]() |
00:26:41 | what was the most terrible, the hardest thing, you had to go through?![]() |
00:26:47 | During this last two, three years?![]() |
00:26:50 | RK: The hardest thing was really that little, that little camp that I went to,![]() |
00:26:55 | because we put us to sleep in a silo, that we had to crawl into, and I thought that was the gas chamber.![]() |
00:27:02 | And I thought we'll never crawl out of there and that was such a miserable place.![]() |
00:27:07 | That was like the most miserable place I was ever in.![]() |
00:27:11 | That was, I think, that was the hard, and, and I, I didn't, I took everything like for granted,![]() |
00:27:18 | as has to be like this, has to be like this.![]() |
00:27:20 | And since I was with my mother that was so wonderful.![]() |
00:27:24 | I, I she, I knew she is gonna take care of me.![]() |
00:27:30 | And my father I saw every day, every day or every Sunday in the, in the, in, in, in Dresden {breathing}.![]() |
00:27:41 | IV: And did you know anything about ah the existence of gas chambers?![]() |
00:27:46 | RK: Oh, yes, oh, I, we, we heard it in the ghetto and nobody believed it, ach,![]() |
00:27:52 | because I think they sent us some people from, from a concentration camp, I don't know how.![]() |
00:27:58 | They were behind some place, not in the ghetto, but some place behind and they were telling us stories![]() |
00:28:06 | and we thought they were cra.., absolutely crazy.![]() |
00:28:08 | And I couldn't, we couldn't believe it there is no such a thing,![]() |
00:28:12 | there is no such a thing as concentration camp, not, not, in the ghetto nobody believed.![]() |
00:28:16 | But then in 1939 nobody believed there is gonna be a war.![]() |
00:28:22 | There was a war and my city wasn't bombed, because it was Litzmannstadt, it was German. {Breathing}![]() |
00:28:32 | So that was really, the, the worst, the worst point and I was just lucky that I, we had a group![]() |
00:28:40 | that they kept together with children, with wives and that was, that was very unusual, very unusual.![]() |
00:28:48 | So, God was good to me or whatever was good to me, whatever God or,![]() |
00:28:53 | or destiny or whatever you call it.![]() |
00:28:57 | IV: And af.., after starting this new life in the US,![]() |
00:29:04 | ah did you think a lot of those things of the five past year?![]() |
00:29:08 | RK: No, I, I never, I never went, I, I wanted to I, I not that I wanted to forget,![]() |
00:29:15 | but I didn't delve on it, I just didn't, I just, it's a new life.![]() |
00:29:19 | I'm not gonna live with the past, I'm gonna live with the future.![]() |
00:29:22 | But my husband, my husband was constantly thinking and,![]() |
00:29:26 | and reading and everything back..![]() |
00:29:28 | I said: "Don't do that, don't do it to yourself, you make yourself miserable.![]() |
00:29:31 | Live with, with your future, not with the past.![]() |
00:29:35 | No, no I, I didn't wanna go to the past, I wanted to go![]() |
00:29:39 | and have ah forget, no that I wanted to forget,![]() |
00:29:42 | or was ashamed to tell anybody I was in concen..,![]() |
00:29:45 | I just figured I have a new life, I was 21 when I came to this country.![]() |
00:29:50 | I wanted to have, have a brand new life.![]() |
00:29:54 | Because my mother said: "Tomorrow'll be better."![]() |
00:29:56 | And that was better.![]() |
00:29:59 | So that's how I live, tomorrow will be better.![]() |
00:30:05 | IV: That's a good mantra.![]() |
00:30:08 | And I think ah it also fits with the United States.![]() |
00:30:12 | RK: Yes.![]() |
00:30:12 | IV: So I think that's..![]() |
00:30:13 | RK: A wonderful country, absolutely the best country there is.![]() |
00:30:20 | IV: So, you told me driving here with the car, your husband started to hold lectures![]() |
00:30:27 | and talk about this and teach children about this, his past and what he..![]() |
00:30:32 | RK: My, my, my husband, yes, yes, he was..![]() |
00:30:35 | IV: Maybe you tell a little bit about him..?![]() |
00:30:37 | RK: Ah, I'd, he was, I know that he went to school and the kids loved every story he tell them,![]() |
00:30:44 | every and they would send him "Thank You" letters, wrote letters to him and he loved to talk about it.![]() |
00:30:52 | He would really, lived with his past.![]() |
00:30:56 | And also he, he painted, he was a painter, he liked to copy all the good artists,![]() |
00:31:05 | we are, had, there was not one room, not, no room in my house that a painting wasn't hanging,![]() |
00:31:14 | so he went through a lot, he, my husband went through a lot.![]() |
00:31:17 | I was the lucky one.![]() |
00:31:20 | He had a miserable life.![]() |
00:31:23 | He was in the Warsaw ghetto, he was in the, helping the Uprising, he ran out from, from a train![]() |
00:31:32 | train to Treblinka, which was, you didn't come out of that camp,![]() |
00:31:38 | that was a death camp, he managed to run out fro.., you know through the old little window and ah...![]() |
00:31:44 | yeah, he ran, he hadn't, he ran away.![]() |
00:31:48 | And he went back to Warsaw.![]() |
00:31:52 | My, is my ah interview a little too short?![]() |
00:31:57 | IV: Everyone is telling the story he wants to tell.![]() |
00:32:00 | RK: Ah just that I, I, I like to remember good, good stuff.![]() |
00:32:04 | But I know that the camp that I, we had to go, because after the, after the bombing in Dresden,![]() |
00:32:12 | that was the most horrible experience in my whole life.![]() |
00:32:16 | That was absolutely, {breathing} I don't even wanna think about that silo that I have to crawl into,![]() |
00:32:25 | that was and all the people filthy, filthy, miserable {breathing} what that was absolutely,![]() |
00:32:32 | because they kept us nice, they kept us, because they wanted men to work in that Metallfabrik.![]() |
00:32:42 | IV: There are things ah as a child or a young woman seeing also a lot of people dying every day,![]() |
00:32:48 | I think that was a experience..![]() |
00:32:48 | RK: Oh yes, yes they died, they died of different sicknesses I don't know, I told you about the women that had diarrhea![]() |
00:32:57 | that died of the diarrhea that, that, that was, that was bad, that was...![]() |
00:33:04 | But, you know, I just at, I always thought about the good points not, not the miserable parts.![]() |
00:33:15 | IV: So, optimistic kind of.![]() |
00:33:18 | RK: Mh, yeah.![]() |
00:33:18 | IV: Optimistic..![]() |
00:33:19 | RK: Well, my, my mother I take after my mother and she was optimistic, she was..![]() |
00:33:25 | She was ah, constantly, constantly telling everybody, "Don't worry, tomorrow, tomorrow." {laughing}, it was always a tomorrow.![]() |
00:33:37 | IV: And then ah you got children in the United States?![]() |
00:33:40 | RK: Oh, yes, yes.![]() |
00:33:41 | IV: Can you just tell a little bit?![]() |
00:33:42 | RK: I have, I have, I have ah I have a son and a daughter and they gave me grandchildren,![]() |
00:33:50 | I have ah {breathing} I, my daughter gave me a, son also, a grandson and a granddaughter![]() |
00:33:59 | and they in turn gave me some great-grandchildren, so I have three great-grandchildren,![]() |
00:34:06 | the oldest is seven, he is a boy, a little genius boy {laughing}, absolutely genius {laughing}.![]() |
00:34:14 | And a little girl that's ah four and now my granddaughter has a little girl,![]() |
00:34:22 | she is two, so I have three great-grandchildren and they, they doing, all doing well,![]() |
00:34:32 | they absolutely doing well, they, they thrive in the United States.![]() |
00:34:37 | Because if it wasn't for the war, I would still be with, with the Polish people that hated the Jews![]() |
00:34:44 | constantly reminded us we should leave ah {breathing}..![]() |
00:34:48 | IV: You, you really can remember this, how the Polish people treat you, maybe you just talk a little bit about this.![]() |
00:34:54 | RK: That was unbelievable how they hated the Jews, they had signs on the wall,![]() |
00:34:59 | we should leave {breathing}, we should leave, but there then they had signs:![]() |
00:35:06 | "You Jews leave, but leave the beautiful Jewish women here." {laughing}![]() |
00:35:10 | Signs, stupid signs, stupid signs, hateful.![]() |
00:35:15 | Ah, we had public schools and before the war, public schools,![]() |
00:35:20 | but they, they separated we, we went to a public school for Jewish children,![]() |
00:35:27 | not Catholic children that mix with Jewish children.![]() |
00:35:31 | And I think it was ah the priest, the church that taught them how to hate the Jews.![]() |
00:35:39 | Because naturally the Jews killed Jesus and the Jews killed the Christian children,![]() |
00:35:47 | because they needed blood for the Matze to make Matze with the blood.![]() |
00:35:53 | And blo.., blood is hateful for the Jews that's when we, they make kosher meat,![]() |
00:36:00 | they make sure that the blood runs out, that's why they make it kosher that the salt makes the blood run out.![]() |
00:36:07 | So there was all and those, all the lies where done by I im.., I imagine.![]() |
00:36:13 | I would say that done by priests, the church did that, taught them how to hate the Jew, I don't know,![]() |
00:36:21 | Hitler managed to tell everybody to kill the Jew.![]() |
00:36:25 | And the German people were very good to the Jewish people they, we, they were allowed to go to University,![]() |
00:36:31 | they were well educated till Hitler came and Poland was not, you couldn't go to University,![]() |
00:36:39 | you had to go out of, to Austria, to France, to Germany, if you wanted to be educated that's where you had to go.![]() |
00:36:47 | Jew had no, no reason to be in University, they were ha.., hateful people,![]() |
00:36:54 | they still are, they still are, they may be a little quiet about it,![]() |
00:36:59 | but inwardly they really they hate, well everybody else hates, hates the Jews, so {laughing}.![]() |
00:37:06 | But we managed to survive, we managed to survive.![]() |
00:37:11 | IV: And in the United States today how do you feel?![]() |
00:37:13 | RK: There is some, there is some people, I might, I don't know, but they, but they're not vocal about it,![]() |
00:37:20 | so it's not, they keep it to themselves.![]() |
00:37:25 | IV: And so you can feel fine?![]() |
00:37:28 | RK: I had no problem being Jewish there at all, no, no.![]() |
00:37:32 | Well I lived in a community on the ocean where we had Italian and Irish and Jewish![]() |
00:37:39 | and ah all different nationalities, we lived in harmony.![]() |
00:37:44 | Oh by the way, I forgot to tell you, that we had a storm in 1912 {means: 2012} called Sandy,![]() |
00:37:52 | ah which broke my house, my house was destroyed by the storm, I lived right on top of the beach.![]() |
00:38:01 | And my whole living room wall was brick and glass, the whole stretch and it, the wall,![]() |
00:38:10 | the, the sea wall broke into my house and broke the whole, all the windows and all the walls to my living room,![]() |
00:38:19 | but every, everything else and I was there, I was in the house while it happened.![]() |
00:38:24 | Some people, my neighbours broke the kitchen window, came upstairs to the bedroom,![]() |
00:38:31 | I was in the bedroom, I didn't think it was so terrible {laughing}.![]() |
00:38:35 | And they took me out, they took me out from the house.![]() |
00:38:42 | So I survived something else and it, it, before that my husband died, he had a car accident.![]() |
00:38:49 | I was sick for three month after that car accident and he died, it was another "Tomorrow will be better".![]() |
00:38:59 | And that's how I live, tomorrow will be better.![]() |
00:39:01 | IV: Yeah, so, I hope you can say this mantra many years more, many more years, every day new.![]() |
00:39:09 | RK: Thank you.![]() |
00:39:11 | IV: Thank you for giving us the interview.![]() |
00:39:13 | RK: Thank you.![]() |
00:39:13 | IV: It was great meeting you, thank you.![]() |