Media Collection "Interview Salek Benedikt 2011"
AGFl_0088
Video 02:35:29
05/12/2011
KZ-Gedenkstätte Flossenbürg
KZ-Gedenkstätte Flossenbürg
Stadt Łódź
Sottocampo di Gleiwitz I, Campo di concentramento di Auschwitz
Stadt Gleiwitz
Vernichtungslager Treblinka
Campo di concentramento di Auschwitz
Campo di concentramento di Auschwitz II Birkenau
Campo di concentramento di Auschwitz III Monowitz
Stadt Berlin
Campo di concentramento di Sachsenhausen
Campo di concentramento di Flossenburg
Campo di concentramento di Dachau
Stadt Neunburg vorm Wald
Stadt Schwandorf
DP-Camp Kloster Indersdorf
Ghetto Wierzbnik-Starachowice
Ghetto Litzmannstadt
Stadt Deggendorf
Stadt Kielce
DP-Camp Winzer
Stadt Montevideo
Weiler Wintershill Hall
Stadt London
Stadt Manchester
Stadt Szydłowiec
Sottocampo di Gleiwitz I, Campo di concentramento di Auschwitz
Stadt Gleiwitz
Vernichtungslager Treblinka
Campo di concentramento di Auschwitz
Campo di concentramento di Auschwitz II Birkenau
Campo di concentramento di Auschwitz III Monowitz
Stadt Berlin
Campo di concentramento di Sachsenhausen
Campo di concentramento di Flossenburg
Campo di concentramento di Dachau
Stadt Neunburg vorm Wald
Stadt Schwandorf
DP-Camp Kloster Indersdorf
Ghetto Wierzbnik-Starachowice
Ghetto Litzmannstadt
Stadt Deggendorf
Stadt Kielce
DP-Camp Winzer
Stadt Montevideo
Weiler Wintershill Hall
Stadt London
Stadt Manchester
Stadt Szydłowiec
aufgenommen in London
- Evakuierung des Lagers und Transport nach Auschwitz
- Bauarbeiten im Lager Buna und Bombardement des Lagers
- Wiedersehen mit einem Bekannten und Informationen über das Schicksal des Bruders
- Exkurs: Unterstützung von Halbwaisen durch die Eltern vor dem Krieg - Hilfe im Lager durch die alten Beziehungen
- Unterstützung durch andere Bekannte seiner Eltern
- Todesmarsch nach Gleiwitz und Transport über das KZ Sachsenhausen nach Flossenbürg
- Ankunft in Flossenbürg - Häftlingsbad und Barackeneinteilung
- Überraschend gutes Essen und Gelegenheitsarbeiten im Lager
- Terrorisierung der Juden durch den Blockältesten und Verlegung in eine andere Baracke
- Transport von Flossenbürg in Richtung Dachau und Bombardierung des Zugs
- Todesmarsch und Ermordung von Häftlingen
- Ankündigung zur Möglichkeit der Emigration und Enttäuschung im polnischen Militärlager in Winzer
- Verhältnisse im Lager und Hilfe durch UNRRA-Mitarbeiterin - Verlegung nach Indersdorf
- Exkurs: Lodzer Stadtgeschichte und Geschäft des Vaters - Schicksal der Eltern und Geschwister
- Resozialisierung in Indersdorf I
- Exkurs: Jugendbaracke in Flossenbürg - Schlimmste Zeit im Lager in Starachowice
- Weg von Neunburg über Winzer nach Indersdorf - Ankunft und Eingewöhnen im DP-Camp für Kinder
- Beziehungen und Konflikte zwischen den Kindern unterschiedlicher Herkunft
- Theaterstück für Eisenhower und Beziehung zu UNRRA-Mitarbeitern - Fotoaufnahmen der Kinder mit Namensschildern
- Ankunft und Unterkunft in Wintershill Hall und London
- Besuch der Kunsthochschule und Arbeit bei einer Werbeagentur
- Kennenlernen der Ehefrau - Exkurs: Resozialisierung in Indersdorf II
- Geburt und Erziehung des Sohnes Nicholas - Erzählen der Lagererfahrungen im Familien- und Freundeskreis
- Exkurs: Zeit in Neunburg und Indersdorf
- Hilfe durch Sozialarbeiter in England nach der Ankunft - Wiedersehen mit UNRRA-Mitarbeitern
- Manipulation des Geburtsdatums bei der Einreise - Änderungen des Namens
- Exkurs: Bedeutung der Religion in der Familie
Originator/Copyright holder | Medienwerkstatt Franken |
---|---|
Source(s) | KZ-Gedenkstätte Flossenbürg / Medienwerkstatt Franken |
Usage conditions | Nur mit Einverständnis und Nennung von Archiv bzw. Urheber |
Display format | Interview, Rohmaterial |
Interviewer | Michael Aue |
Camera | Günter Wittmann |
Subtitles for "AGFl_AV.22.0811.mp4"
00:00:00 | IV: At the beginning of the story, maybe you tell us a little bit where you're born, where you grow up, a little bit about your family?![]() |
00:00:03 | SB: Right. My name is Salek Benedikt. I was born in 1925.![]() |
00:00:12 | I had a - my parents owned a restaurant and a delicatessen shop in the town of Łódź, in Poland. We were fairly well-off.![]() |
00:00:26 | And my - I had an older sister and a brother. My sister was still in school and my brother worked for a silk manufactory as a trainee manager.![]() |
00:00:39 | I was at school, too, before the war started.![]() |
00:00:45 | I did not go back to school in this particular year 1939, because war was looming.![]() |
00:00:53 | And usually we will be in holiday, but not in the, in 1939.![]() |
00:01:01 | The German army entered Łódź in September of 1939.![]() |
00:01:07 | Within days, there was order for a curfew.![]() |
00:01:11 | Jews were not allowed to leave their home. Eh.. No So...![]() |
00:01:18 | No earlier than 8 o'clock in the morning till 5 o'clock in the evening, everything had to be locked up.![]() |
00:01:26 | The main gate into the, I lived in an appartment, and the main gate had to be closed at 5 o'clock.![]() |
00:01:36 | But there was an entrance by the side, of the inside the building into the restaurant, so most of the neighbours after dinner came down.![]() |
00:01:51 | And they were sitting there, having coffee, playing cards, dominos, discussing the events of the day and so on.![]() |
00:02:01 | Now, one day, or rather one evening there was a rap on the door, a loud knock on the door.![]() |
00:02:11 | A man walked in, in civilian clothing.![]() |
00:02:14 | And he stood in the middle of the room, raised his arm in the Hitler salute.![]() |
00:02:22 | But before he actually said 'Heil Hitler' he dropped his arm, looked around the room, he saw my father, he begged my father.![]() |
00:02:34 | My father went up to him. They exchanged a few words, and then my father unlocked the door into the delicatessen shop.![]() |
00:02:43 | They went in there. As soon as they went in, everybody disappeared.![]() |
00:02:48 | My mother was sitting there very worried, watching the door.![]() |
00:02:54 | I joined my mother, after, about I don't know how long, it seemed a very long time, I'm sure it wasn't that long, they came out.![]() |
00:03:04 | My father shook hands with the man.![]() |
00:03:08 | He left.![]() |
00:03:10 | And my father was very upset. He sat down with us. My mother cooked him a coffee.![]() |
00:03:17 | And he told us who the man was.![]() |
00:03:20 | Now it goes back, more than a year before the war.![]() |
00:03:26 | A man came into the restaurant and he wanted to order breakfast but he couldn't speak Polish well, and the waitress couldn't understand him. So she called my father.![]() |
00:03:39 | My father immediately recognized his accent. He was German.![]() |
00:03:44 | My father spoke German very well. He was serving in the Austrian army during the First World War.![]() |
00:03:51 | So he ordered the breakfast.![]() |
00:03:54 | And from then on, this man whenever came in, he would, he would wait for my father patiently to take the order.![]() |
00:04:04 | Then my father, if time permitted, sat down and they were talking.![]() |
00:04:09 | And after a few months they were good friends.![]() |
00:04:13 | Now, then he stopped coming.![]() |
00:04:16 | My father was very worried. Maybe he's ill, you know his friend. But he didn't know where he lived.![]() |
00:04:22 | And so busy, the war getting closer. He forgot.![]() |
00:04:29 | This man came in.![]() |
00:04:33 | He came in with the occupying forces.![]() |
00:04:36 | Not far from us was the headquarters of the Nazi-party.![]() |
00:04:42 | We could see it from the shop.![]() |
00:04:47 | And he could see my father. And he said, he had to come in to warn him.![]() |
00:04:51 | He came in to warn him, it's going to be very bad for Jewish people in Łódź.![]() |
00:04:58 | And asked him he should leave.![]() |
00:05:01 | He said, for your sake and for mine.![]() |
00:05:04 | So of course after this, my father got very worried.![]() |
00:05:11 | He decided, now we will move out of town.![]() |
00:05:14 | He had a standing invitation from a friend, in a small town near the city of Kielce.![]() |
00:05:23 | He had a big house. He was a merchant.![]() |
00:05:28 | So my father decided, he will move there. But also around the corner from us lived my grandfather who had a fruiter, he was in fruit, fruit-business.![]() |
00:05:41 | And also an uncle of mine, who was a butcher. They had shops around the corner from us.![]() |
00:05:48 | My father went around to tell them, you know, what's going to happen.![]() |
00:05:54 | So they decided, my uncle, the butcher, he came from a small town.![]() |
00:06:00 | A village, from a little village, somewhere far away.![]() |
00:06:05 | And they decided to move there, and my grandmother and grandfather also. And my father decided to take up the invitation from his friend.![]() |
00:06:22 | So they loaded up ever.. but he would not leave Łódź.![]() |
00:06:28 | Because my brother left Łódź soon after the Germans entered, he went for the Russian border which was by then opened.![]() |
00:06:40 | You know the Russians occupied part of Poland like the Germans.![]() |
00:06:45 | So he went with a friend of his to the Russian part of Poland.![]() |
00:06:52 | So my father said he will wait till he comes back, because he had a letter from my brother that he is coming back because his friend became ill.![]() |
00:07:06 | And he can't let him travel by himself.![]() |
00:07:10 | He wants to go back home, so he will join him. So my father said, he will wait there with my sister.![]() |
00:07:17 | When the brother is back, they will all come and join us there.![]() |
00:07:22 | So I left with all the goods and stayed there.![]() |
00:07:26 | After a week or so my father arrived.![]() |
00:07:31 | He said he was worried what's happening here and after a few days he said, you know, I have to go back.![]() |
00:07:44 | He went to see some people he knew in town.![]() |
00:07:48 | And, eh.. before he left, he took off his watch and tried to give it to me. I wouldn't take it, I felt, you know, it's like a last..![]() |
00:08:01 | I said, "No, nothing will happen. You will get back ok."![]() |
00:08:06 | So he went back, and then he sent me an letter, I should join my grandparents and my uncle, the butcher, in the little village.![]() |
00:08:16 | By then it was very cold in Poland.![]() |
00:08:20 | I remember, we travelled on the slay, you know.![]() |
00:08:23 | And I had to, we travelled at night.![]() |
00:08:26 | I had to get down from the top and around because otherwise I get frozen.![]() |
00:08:32 | Anyway, we arrived in this village.![]() |
00:08:35 | It was a small village, you wouldn't know there was a war.![]() |
00:08:38 | You couldn't see a policeman or a German uniform.![]() |
00:08:43 | Nothing, you know. But was very basic living, you know, in a small village.![]() |
00:08:50 | We lived in a house made from logs, you know.![]() |
00:08:54 | And then in March of 193..., yes, it must have been 1940, at night a knock on the door.![]() |
00:09:09 | Open the door, a Polish officer in full uniform, you know.![]() |
00:09:15 | You know, he said, where, where is the... eh, what is it called, the... where they keep horses, the peasant, he thought. We said, we are refugees, we don't have it.![]() |
00:09:31 | He said, come show me.![]() |
00:09:34 | So I had to put on my coat, and he was standing '...'![]() |
00:09:37 | I came out, showed them. He said, he left.![]() |
00:09:41 | When I came back my grandfather called me, he said, look out of the window! Look out of the window!![]() |
00:09:48 | A whole Polish army crossing, with artillery, horse and artillery, in 1940!![]() |
00:09:56 | Several months after the war.![]() |
00:10:00 | Now these Polish partisans, the Polish army, hiding in the woods.![]() |
00:10:06 | And they were crossing from one wood to another.![]() |
00:10:09 | On... this was a friday night, they left sunday night.![]() |
00:10:15 | Monday morning the Gestapo with the SS. And I was taken to fill sacks with straw for the SS who was there.![]() |
00:10:29 | I came in, eh ... this was... it was a cooperative.![]() |
00:10:36 | And the building was a cooperative.![]() |
00:10:39 | The priest was standing against the wall.![]() |
00:10:41 | The catholic priest. Beaten by an SS man.![]() |
00:10:45 | We had to stuff. You know, some other young people.. this.![]() |
00:10:49 | Then after a few days, it was high up in the mountain, we could see villages being burned.![]() |
00:10:59 | And the rumour was, that the Germans were.. rather the Nazis, were burning down the villages where they crossed.![]() |
00:11:10 | So we got together, and my uncle said "That's bad, they are not burning down this village, because they have their headquarters here. But eventually they'll probably burn down.."![]() |
00:11:24 | So one evening we escaped.![]() |
00:11:26 | We escaped to a nearby town.![]() |
00:11:30 | In this town, by April on a saturday morning, two gendarms came to the door, called the names of my uncle, myself, two uncles... two uncles and myself.![]() |
00:11:49 | And there was another man living somwhere else, and took us to the townhall.![]() |
00:11:54 | There was a gendarm sitting at the table.![]() |
00:11:58 | And he said, we left the village without permission. Jews are not allowed to leave without permission from the German authorities.![]() |
00:12:09 | So we were arrested and taken to another town.![]() |
00:12:13 | We went to this town, handed over the Polish policeman, taken to prison.![]() |
00:12:24 | While we were imprisoned there, we had nothing, all there was in this prison were two rooms, a bucket, and banks to sleep.![]() |
00:12:35 | Anyway, we stayed there. No food, no one came in, no facilities, except the bucket.![]() |
00:12:43 | But there was a little window, a small window.![]() |
00:12:48 | We saw a small boy passing by. We called him.![]() |
00:12:52 | And we told him, we asked him to go to the Jewish authorities, and tell them about it.![]() |
00:13:01 | Soon a woman arrived of the Jewish authorities.![]() |
00:13:05 | And through the window she gave us some food, and cigarettes, you know.![]() |
00:13:11 | And after a week, we were released.![]() |
00:13:15 | Two policeman came in, called us, we were released. But before we were released, they were grabbing people from the street, and putting in the prison.![]() |
00:13:26 | There were lot of, I think these prisoners, these people were sent to Treblinka.![]() |
00:13:31 | Anyway, we were released and we went back to the town.![]() |
00:13:37 | And the town was called Szydłowiec.![]() |
00:13:39 | My mother died in the.. my grandmother died in the meantime.![]() |
00:13:45 | My grandfather died before we left the village.![]() |
00:13:50 | So they were dead.![]() |
00:13:52 | So when we went back it was terrible, at night Latvians came and grabbing people, you know, from the beds and drag them away.![]() |
00:14:05 | You didn't see see them again.![]() |
00:14:09 | So it was terrible.![]() |
00:14:10 | One morning a friend of my, of one of my uncles came and said, he heard, in a small town nearby, there is ammunition factory.![]() |
00:14:22 | If you go there, you work in the ammunition factory, you have a Pass, so they won't touch you.![]() |
00:14:30 | You know, you show the Pass, you work for the ammunition factory, so...![]() |
00:14:35 | And he asked, the friend asked my uncle whether he would like to come with him.![]() |
00:14:43 | My uncle said, no, he will stay with the family.![]() |
00:14:46 | Because my married uncle, he had children, two children. He said he will stay with the rest of the family.![]() |
00:14:54 | He asked me whether I would like to go.![]() |
00:14:56 | I said yes! You know, I was always willing to try anything!![]() |
00:15:02 | So, I went.![]() |
00:15:05 | And we were worked in the ammunition factory. I was working the machine breaking steel to make antiaicraft, the... eh... it was called, ammunition, the shells, the shells on..![]() |
00:15:22 | I breaking piece of steel, went into a (???) to heat and in a press to press it and so on.![]() |
00:15:29 | In 1943, there was the most terrible camp you can imagine.![]() |
00:15:37 | And the work was very hard.![]() |
00:15:39 | We worked twelve-hour-shift.![]() |
00:15:41 | And sometimes we had to work 24 hours.![]() |
00:15:45 | The food was (???). Very bad.![]() |
00:15:51 | In 1943 an epidemic of typhus broke out.![]() |
00:15:56 | Some of my workers, you know, fell ill, and died.![]() |
00:16:03 | And I was.. had an easy job.![]() |
00:16:08 | The reason been that I spoke Polish better than the others you know and I was dressed for the job.![]() |
00:16:17 | The Meister, it was a Polish Meister there, he gave me the job.![]() |
00:16:23 | "Just pull the handles hinter the machine, pull the handle to brake."![]() |
00:16:26 | Then I, I volunteered to take over the difficult job.![]() |
00:16:31 | I gave my job to an older man. I.. I wanted he should work there, but the Meister wouldn't.![]() |
00:16:38 | He insisted I do it, not the old man.![]() |
00:16:43 | Anyway, soon after this, I caught typhus, too.![]() |
00:16:49 | In the beginning I was still dragging myself to work. I didn't know.![]() |
00:16:55 | Rather they, they didn't know that, that I had typhus. But later on I just had to give up.![]() |
00:17:06 | I couldn't.. one day I just couldn't get up.![]() |
00:17:09 | So I was taken to hospital. Hospital was just a barrack.![]() |
00:17:15 | And with banks.![]() |
00:17:19 | Whoever was ill was put on the barrack was given one Aspirin. That's all they had.![]() |
00:17:25 | And after... if you lived, you lived.![]() |
00:17:31 | You know, you would wake up and ask for water.![]() |
00:17:34 | If not, you died.![]() |
00:17:36 | Anyway, it happened to me, they gave me an Aspirin, I don't know for how long I was out.![]() |
00:17:41 | When I woke up, they said, you are alright.![]() |
00:17:45 | Back you go.. You have to go back to work.![]() |
00:17:49 | So I left. Of course I was terribly, terribly weak.![]() |
00:17:55 | And other people, too.![]() |
00:17:57 | Then the Nazis decided it's not safe.![]() |
00:18:03 | They noticed that some of the people came out they were weak.![]() |
00:18:07 | They still might be infecting because they were very scared that the soldiers, the guards should not catch, you know.![]() |
00:18:19 | So the commandant gave an order, that everybody who was in hospital has to gather there and has to run.![]() |
00:18:30 | And whoever couldn't run, they shot him.![]() |
00:18:34 | Two, two officers, Gestapo-Officers were standing, and they were shooting people.![]() |
00:18:39 | And I was so weak that I was running with half... you know I was so weak, you know, I couldn't keep my eyes open.![]() |
00:18:47 | I just looked down, I should jump over the bodies.![]() |
00:18:51 | The next thing I knew, I bumped into somebody.![]() |
00:18:55 | I opened my eyes and I heard shooting.![]() |
00:19:02 | Opened eyes, I saw two officers standing smoking cigarettes.![]() |
00:19:06 | And the one, the commandant of the camp, said to the other one "Shoot him!"![]() |
00:19:10 | I was the only one left.![]() |
00:19:12 | So he went for his gun. Pull, Pull, Pull, Pull. Couldn't get out take the gun.![]() |
00:19:19 | He went again. Pull. Couldn't. Kicked me in the stomach.![]() |
00:19:23 | So I turned around, started running, knowing he's going to shoot me in the back.![]() |
00:19:30 | But I... he didn't. So I survived this.![]() |
00:19:35 | After... Not very long afterwards they decided to evacuate the camp.![]() |
00:19:44 | At first we moved to another camp.![]() |
00:19:49 | Also in the same part, woodland I remember.![]() |
00:19:53 | And people were breaking out at night.![]() |
00:19:58 | They brought tools from the factory and the guards were shooting, and they were still running, and I watched it.![]() |
00:20:06 | They were still running. They broke open the fence.![]() |
00:20:10 | It was a wooden fence.![]() |
00:20:12 | And - but I didn't run. I stayed.![]() |
00:20:15 | And I was taken by.. eh, by lorry. They took us to the, eh.. station.![]() |
00:20:25 | There were waggons waiting, took us into, you know these closed waggons, 80 to a waggon and took us to Auschwitz.![]() |
00:20:40 | And we were travelling for several days, no food at all, no water.![]() |
00:20:46 | It was suffocating.![]() |
00:20:48 | Anyway, I arrived in Treblinka.![]() |
00:20:53 | And there, I stayed in Birkenau...![]() |
00:21:00 | For a few weeks. I don't know exactly. I know you heard about Birkenau. There were very bad people. Selection, I went through the selection.![]() |
00:21:09 | And I was sent to work to a nearby camp, which was called Buna.![]() |
00:21:18 | Buna because they were making artificial petrol - artificial (???).![]() |
00:21:27 | It was called Buna.![]() |
00:21:28 | In Buna I was working, building, we were building an underground shelter.![]() |
00:21:35 | Again, it was terrible work, we had, you know, the thin, you know, clothing, you know, like pyjamas.![]() |
00:21:46 | Nothing - we work in the - when it was raining or blowing. It does not matter.![]() |
00:21:54 | The - and then the snow came.![]() |
00:21:58 | In the autumn, Buna was being bombed.![]() |
00:22:03 | Buna was separately from the camp.![]() |
00:22:07 | The camp was three kilometers away.![]() |
00:22:10 | Buna was the place where we worked, was like industrial estate.![]() |
00:22:16 | There were lots, lots of factories. Not only the (???) they were making.![]() |
00:22:22 | All kinds of chemicals. Lots.![]() |
00:22:26 | Now, something happened.![]() |
00:22:28 | While I was in, in, in, in Buna.![]() |
00:22:33 | Oh, oh - sorry, I get a cramp.![]() |
00:22:39 | Something happened in Buna. When I was, they called on a sunday.![]() |
00:22:44 | We had every second sunday free.![]() |
00:22:46 | But on this particular sunday the Kapo went around "Out, out, out! You are going to work because the camp has been bombed."![]() |
00:22:56 | And we have to clear it up.![]() |
00:22:58 | And this was a (???), in this thin, you know, uniform.![]() |
00:23:04 | And I marched to the Buna on a sunday, a whole commando, I don't know how many they were or fast.![]() |
00:23:13 | We marched. As I marched in, somebody was calling my name. Salek! Salek!![]() |
00:23:19 | I looked, I saw a boy standing by the side of the road. I didn't recognize him.![]() |
00:23:27 | I thought there must be other people with my name. I'm not the only one. So we marched on.![]() |
00:23:34 | And they started bombing. Uhh. I'm terrible at the moment. Sorry, I have a... Can we stop for a moment...![]() |
00:23:41 | IV: Okay.![]() |
00:23:43 | SB: In the after - In the after - ... you know, while when they where bombing, there was a shelter, high, about three storeys high.![]() |
00:23:55 | And the top was about three meters of- of- eh concrete iron. You know, it was- it was a shelter.![]() |
00:24:06 | Now, that's very funny, I think.![]() |
00:24:08 | We've been nearby, so I thought we were taking shelter from the bombing. I went in.![]() |
00:24:20 | There were three SS-men sitting there.![]() |
00:24:24 | The one said "You cannot stay here, out! It's not allowed, it's not for you! For Häftlings."![]() |
00:24:32 | So I said "We are not going anyway." So I said.![]() |
00:24:36 | "I will tell you what", he say, "you go up to the top, so if it hit a bomb, you will be the first one to go."![]() |
00:24:43 | We didn't go. We just went up about three stairs, and we stayed there.![]() |
00:24:49 | And the building was shaking like this, you know. Such heavy bombing. We came out. Everything was destroyed!![]() |
00:24:56 | From the previous, in the pipes, running pipes, you know, smoldering little fires all over the place.![]() |
00:25:03 | Anyway, in the afternoon, back we go.![]() |
00:25:07 | We were not allowed to work, when it was dark.![]() |
00:25:11 | In the afternoon the chap was again standing there. This time he ran up to me and he told me who he was.![]() |
00:25:20 | He was an orphan.![]() |
00:25:24 | Before the war, he was working - uh, sorry.![]() |
00:25:28 | He was working in a, in a barber shop, near the other side of the entrance to the block, was a barber shop.![]() |
00:25:40 | And he had no where to live. And he was sleeping there and we were living there.![]() |
00:25:44 | That's what he told me. I didn't know this.![]() |
00:25:48 | Because he asked me to come to his barrack.![]() |
00:25:52 | He gave me the number of the barrack, and I went alone this evening, and he told me he was sleeping there.![]() |
00:25:59 | And unbeknown for him, the owner of the shop went to Russia with the whole family.![]() |
00:26:10 | And he was left without money, without heating, no clothing, winter was closer then.![]() |
00:26:17 | He would have died.![]() |
00:26:18 | He didn't know where to go.![]() |
00:26:22 | So he went to my parents and told them.![]() |
00:26:27 | He said my parents took him in.![]() |
00:26:29 | They gave him warm clothing.![]() |
00:26:32 | They gave him food.![]() |
00:26:34 | Without them, he would have died.![]() |
00:26:37 | Now. I wanted to know about my brother. What happened to my brother? Because I already guessed that something is wrong.![]() |
00:26:51 | Because in Buna in the camp, in the camp, I met a lot of people from Łódź. Right.![]() |
00:27:04 | And I wondered, maybe I know he was in a place called (???). This I remembered.![]() |
00:27:15 | Because he wrote a letter to me when I was still in Poland in the small town, that he is going to work, he volunteered, from Łódź.![]() |
00:27:27 | So I knew this.![]() |
00:27:30 | And the people, they said, yes. They were in the camp. They knew my brother.![]() |
00:27:37 | But they don't know what happened to him.![]() |
00:27:40 | So I could do nothing.![]() |
00:27:45 | So, but I have an idea that he might have been with my brother.![]() |
00:27:50 | So I said to him, look. He said to me, I want to help you.![]() |
00:27:56 | Every wednesday, I'm the barber for the barrack, so I get extra soup, two liter soup. I share it with you.![]() |
00:28:06 | So I said to him, look. I don't want your soup.![]() |
00:28:10 | I want, tell me, what happened to my brother?![]() |
00:28:14 | Just like this. He said, I don't know. I said, I think you do know.![]() |
00:28:20 | Please, tell me. I said, alright.![]() |
00:28:25 | He said, he was with my brother.![]() |
00:28:28 | He had an accident at work and he was shot. Tja. I knew about my brother.![]() |
00:28:34 | Now I missed out to tell you the other things happened before the war.![]() |
00:28:40 | About two years before the war.![]() |
00:28:43 | A merchant from the small town in Poland came to my parents and told them that the neighbour of his died and left a widow.![]() |
00:28:54 | He was a tailor, a poor tailor, left a widow with two children, a girl of 16 and a boy of about 15.![]() |
00:29:02 | And they are starving.![]() |
00:29:06 | They can't get work in the small town. Have you got a.. a.. you know, a place for somebody in the restaurant? You know she'll wash up, she'll do anything.![]() |
00:29:23 | So my parents said, alright. Next time you come, bring her.![]() |
00:29:28 | She came along with the most beautiful girl and such a nice person.![]() |
00:29:33 | My parents loved her from the moment she came. To us she was sister.![]() |
00:29:39 | You know, and my parents looked after her.![]() |
00:29:42 | They treated her not like a worker, but like one of the family.![]() |
00:29:47 | And when the holiday came, she went back to town. The whole town.. she was dressed like a lady.![]() |
00:29:54 | With lots of food she took home, you know.![]() |
00:29:58 | And she had a brother.![]() |
00:30:01 | Now. While I was in quarantine in Buna, people were coming up, we were in a special barrack for quarantine for two weeks.![]() |
00:30:14 | We were not allowed to go out.![]() |
00:30:16 | But the people were coming back, stopped and asked, where are you from? You know, so.![]() |
00:30:21 | And one chap I asked. He said, he is from the small town, where the girl came.![]() |
00:30:27 | So I said, do you know this family?![]() |
00:30:32 | He said, why? I said, this girl worked for us. Her name was Lonja. Lonja was very conf.... he said, you're in luck.![]() |
00:30:43 | I said, what do you mean? You're luck? Her brother is the Stubendienst in a big Zelt. They had a Zelt, a big, thousand people, in the Zelt.![]() |
00:30:56 | Go to see him, when you come out. So.![]() |
00:31:00 | After two weeks I was assigned a barrack and work.![]() |
00:31:04 | I did not yet go to work, so I went along.![]() |
00:31:09 | I went... we were not allowed to go in, so somebody coming out I said "Do you know Moniek Finkelstein?"![]() |
00:31:17 | He said, yes.![]() |
00:31:19 | "Could you tell him, that someone wants to see him?" I said. He went in. He came out. You know, he is a big man, you know.![]() |
00:31:28 | Stubendienst was a big position. Privileged.![]() |
00:31:32 | "What do you want?"![]() |
00:31:34 | I said "Are you Moniek Finkelstein?" He said, yes.![]() |
00:31:38 | I said "I'm Salek Benedikt." Oh! He grabbed me! Kissed me and hugged me.![]() |
00:31:44 | He said, I will help you.![]() |
00:31:48 | Everyday at twelve o'clock, I'm outside dishing guard food.![]() |
00:31:53 | He was... "You join with the biggest Schüssel, you know."![]() |
00:32:01 | You can get, which I did.![]() |
00:32:03 | And every day he took from the bottom, you know. He gave me good food.![]() |
00:32:07 | And this put me right.![]() |
00:32:09 | And when I went to the barrack where I was assigned to, another person recognized me.![]() |
00:32:20 | And he was a Kapo of a Kommando.![]() |
00:32:25 | He was a customer in our restaurant. I didn't know him. He recognized me.![]() |
00:32:30 | And he said, that if I wash his jacket every sunday when I'm not working, you know, every second sunday, he will give me some soup.![]() |
00:32:45 | And so I was very lucky there. And another one.![]() |
00:32:51 | This wasn't the only one.![]() |
00:32:52 | Another one that worked in the camp, a chap comes up to me, a man.![]() |
00:32:58 | He said, you are Benedikt. I said, yes. He said, do you recognize me? I said, no.![]() |
00:33:04 | He said, remember the Easter before the war. You had suits made.![]() |
Subtitles for "AGFl_AV.22.0812.mp4"
00:00:00 | SB: - from the edge of the chair, you know.![]() |
00:00:06 | IV. So we can continue.![]() |
00:00:11 | So he was the one, the tailor. He was the tailor.![]() |
00:00:15 | SB: He was my father's tailor, not our.![]() |
00:00:18 | My father called us, my brother and myself.![]() |
00:00:24 | He said, I think you're old enough to have your suits made by my tailor.![]() |
00:00:28 | You come here on wednesday afternoon, he will be here.![]() |
00:00:35 | He came and measured us but I didn't recognize him. He made our suits.![]() |
00:00:40 | And he said to me, I'm a Kapo. It's not a good Kommando. We were preparing the roads in the winter.![]() |
00:00:52 | If you come to work for me, he said, you won't have to work. But, so.![]() |
00:00:58 | By this time, I had, you know, and after eat, I was stronger.![]() |
00:01:04 | I didn't get any more food from Finckelstein because at 12 o'clock I was already working.![]() |
00:01:13 | You see, he was in the camp.![]() |
00:01:15 | And in the evening I was getting the food from, from my barrack.![]() |
00:01:22 | So this tailor said to me, I would - you know, "If you come to work for me, but you will have to move to my barrack."![]() |
00:01:35 | Which I didn't feel, I was already settled there, you know, I had enough food.![]() |
00:01:41 | So he said to me, every saturday, I bring you a bowl of soup. Which he did.![]() |
00:01:47 | A Kapo! Unbelievable!![]() |
00:01:50 | But something he said to me, he said to me "I was your father's tailor, my wife was a Benedikt."![]() |
00:01:59 | I didn't take much notice, but I will tell you, as we go.![]() |
00:02:05 | So, in the barrack where I was sleeping there was a, a Stubendienst, a Greek, a young chap.![]() |
00:02:17 | He was like an Albino. Very strict.![]() |
00:02:21 | He once slapped my face because I wouldn't listen. He asked me to take out the bucket at night.![]() |
00:02:28 | You know, when the bucket was full whoever came had to take it out, went out in the winter, you know.![]() |
00:02:36 | Anyway, he slapped my face.![]() |
00:02:38 | And once every few months it was an exchange of shoes. We were wearing the wooden clogs.![]() |
00:02:46 | It was rubbing, you know, it was..![]() |
00:02:49 | Anyway, when the shoes, I found a leather, one leather shoe.![]() |
00:02:54 | I looked through. I found the other leather shoe!![]() |
00:02:58 | I know it was only one you could exchange.![]() |
00:03:02 | But I tried. I said them, look I found the two leather shoes.![]() |
00:03:10 | Obviousely no one, because I have a very small foot.![]() |
00:03:15 | I have a very small foot. Can I please have them?![]() |
00:03:21 | He said, yes. That saved my live.![]() |
00:03:24 | So I have these leather boots, you know, my- my feet healed.![]() |
00:03:32 | And when it came.. you know, the January, when the camp was evacuated on the march, the leather shoes were very good.![]() |
00:03:49 | And I survived this march, we marched probably about 60km from eh, Bun- from Auschwitz to Gleiwitz.![]() |
00:04:06 | We marched. Two nights and days, and people were being killed all the time.![]() |
00:04:13 | As soon as, as you went to have a pee or something, bent down, you were shot, all the time, all the time.![]() |
00:04:21 | We had only one rest, in the open of course.![]() |
00:04:27 | It was an old broken factory there.![]() |
00:04:34 | Anyway, we arrived in Gleiwitz, they took us to town to have a- a shower.![]() |
00:04:43 | A group. There was a, a concentration camp - first in the- an empty concentration camp.![]() |
00:04:52 | These people were already gone.![]() |
00:04:51 | They took us out for the shower and took us to the railway onto waggons. This time open waggons, not closed.![]() |
00:05:04 | It was full. By the time I got in the waggons, there was no more room to sit. So I had to stand, in the corner I was standing.![]() |
00:05:14 | We were travelling for two weeks.![]() |
00:05:18 | They were- they were uncoup- I was near the lokomotive.![]() |
00:05:23 | It was a very long train.![]() |
00:05:28 | And they were uncoupeling waggons stopping in different camps. We were going down into Czechoslowakia, Austria.![]() |
00:05:38 | Like camps Groß-Rosen, you know - all kinds of camps!![]() |
00:05:43 | They were stopping, uncoupeling. We could hear. And people were dying in the waggon.![]() |
00:05:50 | No food. Sometimes they threw in some loafs of bread.![]() |
00:05:56 | I was standing - it fell. People grabbed it.![]() |
00:06:00 | I didn't have any food. I asked a boy, gave me a piece of bread. I couldn't eat it.![]() |
00:06:06 | My jaw was frozen.![]() |
00:06:08 | So I took snow. We had no water.![]() |
00:06:11 | Snow with that piece of bread and chewing.![]() |
00:06:14 | Soon after a week or so, probably more than a week, there was plenty (???) - people died, every night we stopped they asked to throw out.![]() |
00:06:29 | Another thing happened, when we went into Czechoslowakia, we stopped under a bridge.![]() |
00:06:36 | I don't know the town it was.![]() |
00:06:38 | But people were going to work in the morning, they were taking the sandwiches and throwing to us.![]() |
00:06:47 | And soon a woman came with coffee, but the SS wouldn't let them come near.![]() |
00:06:54 | They were shooting over their heads.![]() |
00:06:58 | Anyway, we travelled for two weeks when I arrived near Berlin, I can't remember the name of the town.![]() |
00:07:05 | You know, and we travelled to Sachsenhausen.![]() |
00:07:13 | Arrived in Sachensenhausen, a few of us, out of the 80 about ten, nine or ten of us alive.![]() |
00:07:24 | In the waggon.![]() |
00:07:25 | Because I was in the last waggon near the lokomotive.![]() |
00:07:29 | So we got out.![]() |
00:07:34 | The camp Sachsenhausen was full. There was no room.![]() |
00:07:39 | So the put us up in the Heinkel-Werke, where they were making the aircraft.![]() |
00:07:46 | It was like a circus for (???). And the floor was full of wood shaving.![]() |
00:07:52 | And we slept there over night.![]() |
00:07:56 | In the morning we stayed in Sachsenhausen not very long. I remember, it take- I had to go out to bring potatoes and so on for barrack.![]() |
00:08:09 | We had to register, they lost all the documentation. So we have to register. So.![]() |
00:08:16 | While I registered, I've, I met the boy I slept in the same bank with in Buna. So we kept together.![]() |
00:08:27 | And while I was in the queue to register, he met some boy from his hometown, his father's friend.![]() |
00:08:38 | And his father's friend said to him, register as under 16.![]() |
00:08:44 | Give your age under 16.![]() |
00:08:46 | We were already about 18 or so.![]() |
00:08:49 | He wouldn't say why. And we said, it makes no difference, can we register around 18, we registered.![]() |
00:08:59 | Soon after this station, a group of us, I can't remember how many, were destined for Flossenbürg.![]() |
00:09:10 | We travelled in a closed vehicle. It was closed. With guards.![]() |
00:09:18 | Again SS men. Sitting there, full armed.![]() |
00:09:23 | And we were sitting there with a- I can't remember how long it took from Sachsenhausen to Flossenbürg. It is quite a long way.![]() |
00:09:31 | Near Berlin, you know, to- to Flossenbürg.![]() |
00:09:37 | When we arrived there, I think we stopped at the bottom. We didn't go up.![]() |
00:09:43 | Probably the weather wasn't- we had to walk. I came in the morning.![]() |
00:09:47 | The place was white under snow completely.![]() |
00:09:51 | And again the- of course the first protocol is you go to bath.![]() |
00:10:02 | So we went to this place, we had to undress, give up the clothing.![]() |
00:10:08 | We left, you know, totally- there were stairs to walk down.![]() |
00:10:12 | At the top of the stairs, we could leave our shoes and the belt. A leather belt was a peace of string, you know.![]() |
00:10:20 | When we came- we waited there for the bath like usually till the morning, because at night everyone was sleeping.![]() |
00:10:31 | We had to stand there wait and wait till the morning.![]() |
00:10:34 | By the time we were all very- it was already midday.![]() |
00:10:39 | No food.![]() |
00:10:40 | We didn't have any food for days and days - or water.![]() |
00:10:44 | Anyway, this was Flossenbürg.![]() |
00:10:51 | They took people to accomodate them in different barracks.![]() |
00:10:57 | They didn't have special barracks. I don't know how many there were. There were two of us left.![]() |
00:11:02 | I didn't know the other chap.![]() |
00:11:05 | A Kapo came along about midday, he said, come with me, and took us.![]() |
00:11:12 | On the way he was pointing out, this is the- you know, the brothel, the Frauenhaus, you know.![]() |
00:11:26 | And this is, you know, the washhouse, you know, he was pointing out, he was taking us along like this.![]() |
00:11:36 | And then he said, (???) he turned left - I can't say, it might have been right or left - I- Anyway, I said, turn left.![]() |
00:11:44 | Then we came to a blind alley.![]() |
00:11:47 | On one side was one barrack the length of two, like two barracks together.![]() |
00:11:54 | With a door at the back and a door at the front.![]() |
00:11:58 | At the back there was a fence, behind the fence, I found out there was a washroom and toilets.![]() |
00:12:08 | On the lefthand side, there were pits on the ground.![]() |
00:12:13 | And they were burning bodies, I could tell, because I knew the smell from Birkenau.![]() |
00:12:19 | They were burning bodies.![]() |
00:12:21 | Anyway, he took us to a barrack, right the last barrack- the last door at the back.![]() |
00:12:30 | We came in. The Kapo talked to a man was dressed in Russian clothing in Russian military uniform.![]() |
00:12:40 | And after he spoke to me, he just showed like this.![]() |
00:12:45 | There was a- a pritsche.![]() |
00:12:48 | You know. So we were quickly- lay down fell asleep. We didn't sleep all night.![]() |
00:12:57 | So slept there, in the morning we got coffee and bread, first food, lastly - and: roll call.![]() |
00:13:08 | So we went to the roll call, you know what roll call is. You know, in the morning we went to the roll call.![]() |
00:13:16 | And I remember, it was so cold, because Flossenbürg is on the top of a hill.![]() |
00:13:21 | It was so cold. My teeth were chattering like this, you know all of a sudden.![]() |
00:13:29 | Anyway. After the roll call we went back.![]() |
00:13:33 | We are counted up everybody. There was this place where the roll call took place.![]() |
00:13:41 | We went back and stayed in the barrack till lunchtime. Lunchtime we had to go out of the- everybody out of the barrack, lined up for the soup.![]() |
00:13:52 | And as you go to the soup, you went into the barrack to eat it. You were not allowed to go out, you know.![]() |
00:14:02 | So I go, I went up, gave me the soup, took to barrack..![]() |
00:14:07 | I have never ever before, for four years in concentration camps, I never saw a soup like this.![]() |
00:14:14 | Solid potatoes and carrots. Solid!![]() |
00:14:18 | I took the spoon, put it in and watched what was on the spoon.![]() |
00:14:24 | I, I couldn't believe it. I didn't eat like this for four years.![]() |
00:14:31 | Before I finished the soup, I saw, from the corners of my eyes, a Russian.![]() |
00:14:38 | Took, went to the other door, lifted an iron bar, looked out and went out.![]() |
00:14:47 | So I thought, I know what he's up to.![]() |
00:14:50 | I licked my, when I finished, I licked my.. my.. you know, dish clean.![]() |
00:14:57 | And I went up to the door, looked out, couldn't see anyone, I went out and I joined the queue again.![]() |
00:15:05 | And I had another portion but if I was caught, I would be in the pits.![]() |
00:15:11 | So, this was the day I really ate well. I never forget it.![]() |
00:15:18 | Anyway, we were assigned- the two boys left, were then picked up by the Kapo in the afternoon and taken to the children's block, I was told it was block 16.![]() |
00:15:33 | Children's block, I was given a bank, at the top.![]() |
00:15:39 | I was sleeping with a Yugoslav chap. He was telling me his story, he was speaking Yugoslav, I was speaking in Polish. We understood each other, both Slavic languages.![]() |
00:15:53 | And he was telling me, he was a courier for the partisans and he was caught and sent here. And in the evening, before lights out, a Russian boy had a balalaika, was playing the balalaika and singing Russian songs.![]() |
00:16:11 | I thought, where am I? Am I in heaven or.. am I in a concentration camp.![]() |
00:16:19 | Anyway, lights out. The food was better.![]() |
00:16:24 | In the morning, for roll call, we didn't have to move.. eh, where everybody had to move.![]() |
00:16:34 | We stand in front of the barrack, counted in the ends, others had to wait till "alles stimmt", you know.![]() |
00:16:43 | Was lovely, didn't have to work but we could volunteer because you were not allowed to be in the barrack during the day.![]() |
00:16:52 | So you volunteered.![]() |
00:16:54 | Sometimes, you volunteered to push food to the kitchen, so if you're lucky, you got a carrot or a turnip.![]() |
00:17:05 | At other time, you could carry clothing from the washroom to a store, up the hill. There was a hill with an narrow path, no wider than this.![]() |
00:17:20 | You carried the bundle and you were guarded by a guard, an old man from the Volkssturm.![]() |
00:17:30 | He had a rifle that high, you know.![]() |
00:17:32 | And he was the last one and he was going "Gänseschritt, Gänseschritt, Gänseschritt".![]() |
00:17:39 | We carried up, we came up to the top.![]() |
00:17:43 | He said "Put down the bundles. And look through all the pockets. Any money you find belongs to me."![]() |
00:17:52 | And turned round his back, put his hands, kept at the back. For the money..![]() |
00:17:59 | Needless to say, we couldn't find any money.![]() |
00:18:04 | But as soon as he turned his back, I took off the jacket which was a terrible garment, I got.![]() |
00:18:12 | And put on the best one from the bundle. So.. So, it was profitable in this way.![]() |
00:18:22 | After being in this barrack for a while, I can't remember how many weeks, one morning at roll call, the.. barrack Kapo, you know, Stubenälteste, said,![]() |
00:18:44 | "I've got something to tell you. I've got Jews in my barrack" - because they couldn't tell, before in Auschwitz, you got the triangle, you know.![]() |
00:18:57 | So, you could tell Jews there but just "KL", nothing in the front.![]() |
00:19:04 | So somebody must have told him, he said "I've got 30 lousy, scabby Hungarian Jews in my barrack. I won't stand, I won't stand for it. They will cause an epidemic."![]() |
00:19:23 | First, he said, "Older Jews will have to sleep by the window."![]() |
00:19:31 | "The windows will be open."![]() |
00:19:33 | "I will take away all the blankets."![]() |
00:19:37 | And since there were not enough banks by the window, Jews will have to sleep three to a bank.![]() |
00:19:48 | It was narrow enough for two and nevermind for three.![]() |
00:19:52 | I didn't sleep since then because I was the weak one, the smallest one, so they pushing me out. I was sleeping, you know, on the edge.![]() |
00:20:04 | It was terrible.![]() |
00:20:06 | And in the morning, he said, the Jews will have to be the first out of the barrack.![]() |
00:20:12 | And he was standing by the door, with attention, hitting one, two, three, bang, bang, bang, over the head.![]() |
00:20:21 | It became.. very bad as you can imagine.![]() |
00:20:27 | But he was not satisfied.![]() |
00:20:30 | One morning, he said "I have decided to get rid of the Jews from my barrack. Everybody will be told, the barrack they should report to."![]() |
00:20:45 | I was repor- given a number, I think it was 27, might be wrong.![]() |
00:20:52 | So, I went to barrack 27, there was allready a group of youngsters, little ones, waiting there.. around.![]() |
00:21:06 | So I asked somebody, "Do you live in this barrack?" He said, yes. I said, "What's the Kapo like?" He said, "He's terrible, he's a murderer. He's a murderer."![]() |
00:21:21 | My luck, the Kapo arrived, called us together, he said "Stand around me."![]() |
00:21:29 | Then he made a speech.![]() |
00:21:31 | He said "You are now, you are my children."![]() |
00:21:35 | By then, you already know, they game is over, the war was over.![]() |
00:21:42 | "You are my children, I will look after you well."![]() |
00:21:45 | Now, he said "I want you to go to the washroom, have your hair cut, there will be a barber and wash your hands, you come back, I will inspect you."![]() |
00:21:58 | Which we did.![]() |
00:22:02 | When I went in the washroom, I saw a body on the floor.![]() |
00:22:07 | Which looked familiar. I bent down and this was my, a school friend of mine.![]() |
00:22:13 | I knew.![]() |
00:22:15 | I met him in the small town that I escaped from the village.![]() |
00:22:19 | Anyway, we went back.![]() |
00:22:23 | He inspected us.![]() |
00:22:26 | And we were assigned banks in his barrack.![]() |
00:22:32 | And he sat, eh.. at the lunch time, he will be the first to get the soup.![]() |
00:22:42 | That was no good because the soup from the top was all water but.. still.![]() |
00:22:48 | You had to do as you were told.![]() |
00:22:51 | And eh, this thing in this.. barrack, a.. a German Kapo came in, he was carrying a pair of high boots.![]() |
00:23:07 | Small ones.![]() |
00:23:12 | "Does anyone want to exchange their boots with me?"![]() |
00:23:16 | I look and see, high boots, lovely, I will have (???). I put them on, they were a little bit tight, I said "They will stretch."![]() |
00:23:26 | So I gave him my boots from, from Auschwitz.![]() |
00:23:30 | And he gave me these boots. Then I found out they were too tight.![]() |
00:23:35 | That if I had to march, I'm a dead man.![]() |
00:23:38 | So, in his barrack, a few days later, in the afternoon, he said, he called us into his room, the Kapo.![]() |
00:23:52 | Little chairs, sit down, he brought in a fiddle to play music for us. I thought, this is absolutely crazy.![]() |
00:24:07 | It did not take long where he gave an order that we should, Jews should step out. We stepped out.![]() |
00:24:18 | He said "You are leaving Flossenbürg tomorrow morning. You report, you know, tomorrow morning."![]() |
00:24:29 | Following morning, we were taken to a, to a station.![]() |
00:24:38 | Not.. not.. not a station because we travelled from eh.. eh.. from Flossenbürg to eh.. on the way to Dachau.![]() |
00:24:59 | They were taking us. By train, they put us on a train again.![]() |
00:25:05 | On this train, we started moving, the train was attacked by Allied. Shot up.![]() |
00:25:16 | And the guards, SS guards, jumped as soon as they started shooting, the train stopped.![]() |
00:25:25 | They, they jumped down in the field and we followed.![]() |
00:25:31 | But we noticed that the guards left the rucksacks behind. I noticed. Right.![]() |
00:25:39 | The Fliegeralarm stopped, we went back into the train and travelled.![]() |
00:25:51 | Not far off, again attacked.![]() |
00:25:54 | This time, they shot up the locomotive.![]() |
00:25:57 | So we couldn't travel any further.![]() |
00:26:02 | But some of the chaps went for the rucksack, they took, they took the bread and the cigarettes.![]() |
00:26:12 | When I got the rucksack, all there was, was a packet of margarine, a small packet of margarine, put it in my pocket.![]() |
00:26:22 | After the alarm, again back, the guards noticed, it was taken, they said "Give back the bread and the cigarettes."![]() |
00:26:34 | No one answered. "We will shoot everybody." No one answered.![]() |
00:26:41 | Of course, they had an option, they said, I'm.. they pushed us all to the back of the train and said "I'm going to search you." I had this packet of margarine, I ate it up.![]() |
00:26:55 | I went to the back, I ate it up, he didn't do me any harm.![]() |
00:27:02 | Anyway, so, from.. from there, we couldn't travel any further.![]() |
00:27:11 | Because the locomotive was shot up.![]() |
00:27:16 | So, the SS called out anyone who can't travel, is too weak or too ill, should wait, they will come, the vehicles will come and take them away.![]() |
00:27:34 | I wasn't taken in by it.![]() |
00:27:37 | I was, I, I chose to march. So we marched.![]() |
00:27:44 | And the people who stayed behind, were taken to a field and shot.![]() |
00:27:48 | And we marched. It was a long march. And eh..![]() |
00:27:57 | A lot of, a lot of people were shot.![]() |
00:28:02 | And you know, and we were liberated, all of a sudden, marching, we stopped.![]() |
00:28:07 | Very long column, I could see, you know, in front of me.![]() |
00:28:12 | And eh.. We stopped on one side was a woodland, the other side were potato field.![]() |
00:28:22 | And we stopped and waited, why did we stop? I looked in the front, the column is breaking up and people are running away.![]() |
00:28:32 | That's odd.![]() |
00:28:34 | So waited and waited and one, one boy said "I will go to the woodland and see what's happening. And I'll tell you."![]() |
00:28:45 | He went, he didn't come back.![]() |
00:28:49 | So there were three of us standing together. I knew the boys from this barrack.![]() |
00:28:54 | We said: "We will all go into the woodlands." It started raining. You know.![]() |
00:29:00 | We went into the woodlands, we marched to the end, there's a village.![]() |
00:29:04 | It was a.. a semi-circle, the village. Went into the village, we knocked on the first door.![]() |
00:29:13 | Someone said, "We are full up."![]() |
00:29:17 | The second, the second house, "We are full of Hungarians, full of Poles, full of Romanians."![]() |
00:29:25 | And so we went to the last house, "We are full up." We said, "Look, we can't go anywhere else. We are hungry, we are cold. Please help us."![]() |
00:29:39 | So the man came out, a tall man, a farmer, he said, "I will tell you what, I will let you stay in my.. stable. Eh.. For the time being, but you have to go."![]() |
00:29:56 | So we went into the stable and he said, we said, "We are hungry, we didn't eat for days."![]() |
00:30:03 | "Wait here." He came out with hot milk and little doughs in the milk. And a slice of bread and we ate this, we fell asleep.![]() |
00:30:16 | So he said to us, "You can't sleep here, you'll get frozen to death, it's so cold at night."![]() |
00:30:22 | He said, "You can sleep in my cowshed, I have got one cow there. You can sleep there."![]() |
00:30:31 | So we went to the cowshed, put some fresh straw and we, and we slept and we slept there and eh..![]() |
00:30:43 | In the morning, he came in with a bucket of hot water, a piece of soap and three shirts.![]() |
00:30:51 | Linen shirts, like farmers, white linen shirts, witthout collars.![]() |
00:30:58 | Washed ourselves, you know, outside in the cold, oh, it was lovely, having nice hot water and a clean shirt without holes, you know.![]() |
00:31:10 | It, it was like born again.![]() |
00:31:15 | So, later on the day, he said, "The SS are looking for you. You better go and join them." So I said, "No, I'm not going. If they want me, they will come here. I'm not going.."![]() |
00:31:33 | So we stayed there, till sunday. Sunday, he invited us in to lunch.![]() |
00:31:43 | It was empty, it was just the three of us.![]() |
00:31:46 | Gave us lunch, I can't remember what, and we told him that we are leaving.![]() |
00:31:53 | He was near, near road, near main road and we knew already, American vehicles were travelling, so Americans were already there.![]() |
00:32:04 | But the SS men were still in the woods, killing people. So on a, on monday morning, we left.![]() |
00:32:17 | We walked along the road, we saw an American vehicle, standing by the road, a jeep.![]() |
00:32:26 | So we walked up to the jeep, it was empty, the Americans were in the field, they were heating tins of food.![]() |
00:32:37 | I remember when we came there, they were heating the fire and the fire they were making, you know, with what? With marks, notes of Marks, high denominations, hundreds, thousands Marks.![]() |
00:32:54 | They had ammunition cases, full of German money and heating the tins with it.![]() |
00:33:01 | So I said to myself, "That's odd."![]() |
00:33:04 | I said, "A fortune, obviously, now, Marks are not worth anything if they are burning them like this."![]() |
00:33:12 | So we went up to them and they gave us some food and they said, "Look, eh, where are you going to?"![]() |
00:33:25 | I said, "We don't know where." They suggested, we go to the nearest town, it's Neunburg.![]() |
00:33:31 | They said, it's not very far. It took us three days to get there, we walked -![]() |
Subtitles for "AGFl_AV.22.0813.mp4"
00:00:00 | We knocked on the door, the first door, whether we can sleep there.![]() |
00:00:04 | People were usually good, so they let us sleep. You know, and eh..![]() |
00:00:09 | We eventually got to the outskirts of Neunburg.![]() |
00:00:13 | There was a German man with a white band, came up and he said, he was appointed by the American authorities, they had already occupied, you know, this part of Germany.![]() |
00:00:28 | By the American authorities, to look after the people coming back from the camps.![]() |
00:00:33 | They would like accommodate us, give us something to eat, then accommodate us, if we follow him to Neunburg.![]() |
00:00:42 | We followed him to Neunburg, took us to the eh.. the Stadthalle, you know what it is called, to the townhall.![]() |
00:00:55 | He took us to the townhall, there was a, two queues.![]() |
00:01:00 | One queue where you registered, another queue where you got bread. Bread and coffee.![]() |
00:01:07 | But first, you had to register.![]() |
00:01:09 | We went, we registered and then we got black bread and coffee.![]() |
00:01:15 | We were so hungry, you know, when you went - through a window, you got black coffee and a quarter of a bread.![]() |
00:01:22 | You went back to the queue, ate it up and have another one. This didn't matter.![]() |
00:01:29 | And then, he came up, this man said, "You wait here. And eh.. I will come, I will come and find you accommodation, with a German family."![]() |
00:01:41 | We waited a long time.![]() |
00:01:43 | While we were sitting, waiting, I said to (???) two frenchmen, wearing like brand-new Nazi uniforms.![]() |
00:01:52 | I said, "Where did you get it?" He said, "Behind there, there's a ladder, it goes up in the loft."![]() |
00:01:59 | So I went in there, went up the ladder in the loft. Soon got Nazi flags, books, bits of clothing.![]() |
00:02:11 | So, I found two brown shirts, obviously Hitler Youth.![]() |
00:02:18 | One was linen shirt, one was (???) shirts.![]() |
00:02:22 | Brown shirt, it fitted me, I tried it on, it fitted me.![]() |
00:02:26 | And I found breeches, you know, breeches. Yellow velvet breeches, I found, but fitted me - it was also from obviously, from a Hitler youth because it was small.![]() |
00:02:43 | And I put this on.![]() |
00:02:46 | And the jacket I was wearing.. And I found a pair of white socks.![]() |
00:02:52 | Put it on, I lost, I lost my boots because when we were travelling on the train, we had to jump out, so I thought, they were killing me.![]() |
00:03:05 | When we came back, there were bodies in the train, they shot up, from the bombing.![]() |
00:03:11 | So I called out to somebody who was sitting there, I knew him, "Can you get me his shoes?" They were tennis shoes.![]() |
00:03:20 | White tennis shoes.![]() |
00:03:23 | So the white tennis shoes was better than shoes that I couldn't walk in.![]() |
00:03:27 | So I was wearing white tennis shoes. Now, these white socks I put on in the tennis shoes, I looked a picture like this, jacket from the camp and brown shirt.![]() |
00:03:39 | And another shirt under my arm.![]() |
00:03:41 | I went down.![]() |
00:03:42 | While I went down, you know, I went out for something, and two Americans passed by and they looked at me and they burst out laughing.![]() |
00:03:51 | I was wearing the cap from the camp.![]() |
00:03:53 | They burst out laughing at me, you know.![]() |
00:03:56 | I went back. I went back, sitting there, waiting, in came two Hitler Youths, in full uniform.![]() |
00:04:05 | One was wearing a rucksack and hanging from the rucksack, were jackboots.![]() |
00:04:13 | German army boots. Brand new. Like just from the factory.![]() |
00:04:18 | And he was wearing a pair of (???) boots, you know.![]() |
00:04:24 | I looked at him, I said, "Hitler youths?" They said, "No, no, they are refugees."![]() |
00:04:30 | I said, "I know better."![]() |
00:04:32 | I said, "Look. You got two pair of boots, I have none, I want - I want one pair of boots."![]() |
00:04:40 | They said to me, "Do you mind if I gave you the one that I was wearing?"![]() |
00:04:44 | But I said, "That's fine with me." They were too, the size was too big for me anyway. So he took off, he took off and he gave me.![]() |
00:04:56 | Actually, about a few minutes later, two American military policemen came in and arrested them.![]() |
00:05:05 | I don't know, how.. and took them away.![]() |
00:05:09 | So this, this - I had yellow boots, white socks, and these high boots.. I was a really picture. And I was waiting there.![]() |
00:05:20 | Eventually, the man came in.![]() |
00:05:22 | He said, "You come with me."![]() |
00:05:25 | He went to a house, knocked on the door. He said, "We are full up." The old story.![]() |
00:05:32 | Everywhere he went in an apartment block, every door - "Full up." Every house - "Full up."![]() |
00:05:39 | And whatever he has told.. So.![]() |
00:05:43 | He looked at his watch, he said, "It will be curfew", the Americans also instituted curfew for the Germans.![]() |
00:05:51 | He said, "I have to go back."![]() |
00:05:54 | So we went back to the townhall, he went to the man who was in charge of these people.![]() |
00:06:02 | He said, "I'm sorry, I couldn't find him accommodation."![]() |
00:06:07 | He said, "You will be in trouble or we will be in trouble if we don't find him accommodation. Because of our orders, we must find him accommodation."![]() |
00:06:16 | So he said, "Do you mind if I take them home?"![]() |
00:06:19 | He said, "I have a house, a big house, but I already have refugees from East Germany and I also have got two gypsy boys."![]() |
00:06:32 | He said, "I don't mind, as long as you give them accommodation."![]() |
00:06:38 | So he took, he took us home, in Neunburg, an enormous house.![]() |
00:06:43 | Gave us a room, first floor.![]() |
00:06:47 | And eh, the.. lady from East Germany came in and said, "What would you like for breakfast?"![]() |
00:06:56 | I said, "Whatever it's going.."![]() |
00:06:59 | You know, we're not used to it.![]() |
00:07:03 | And eh.. We were, we were living in Neunburg at this, in this house for a little while.![]() |
00:07:14 | The Americans took it over as their headquarters because it was bigger now.![]() |
00:07:19 | And then we moved to another place where we were told a Kapo is living upstairs.![]() |
00:07:26 | They gave us one room. They had no children, so.![]() |
00:07:31 | They had plenty of room to themselves.![]() |
00:07:34 | I already met some people from the camps who were liberated before us.![]() |
00:07:43 | And one told me, he got some food, he's got a sack full of rice.![]() |
00:07:49 | He said, "You want some rice?", I said no..![]() |
00:07:52 | One day.. two boys, got jobs with the Americans, one in the kitchen and one eh, was cleaning for American officers, their accommodation.![]() |
00:08:12 | He was cleaning.![]() |
00:08:14 | I couldn't because a few days earlier, we, not a few days, it must have been a week or a couple of weeks, we heard that there are some Jewish women in the camp in Schwandorf.![]() |
00:08:31 | But we had to get to Schwandorf because we thought, maybe there's my sister or my mother, you know, we have to get to Schwandorf.![]() |
00:08:41 | So we went out on the road, we saw a German lorry, it had big chimneys of it burning wood because they had no petrol.![]() |
00:08:52 | I don't know.. I know the chimneys, and they were going up the hill, they couldn't, they had to get off to push it.![]() |
00:09:00 | So we thought we will join them, there were several German.![]() |
00:09:03 | They let us on this waggon and they were going past Schwandorf.![]() |
00:09:12 | So we knocked on the door and said to the driver, "Do you mind, when you come to Schwandorf, you let us off?"![]() |
00:09:19 | He didn't answer. We come to Schwandorf, he wouldn't let us off.![]() |
00:09:24 | We decided to jump, the two boys jumped, they were alright, I jumped, fell like this, broke my arm.![]() |
00:09:33 | So my arm was broken, so I was taken back to eh.. to Neunburg.![]() |
00:09:42 | Where they called the American army, sent an army doctor.![]() |
00:09:51 | He took my right away to the hospital, in Neunburg.![]() |
00:09:56 | And eh.. And they immediately x-rayed it and put it in plaster.![]() |
00:10:07 | So I couldn't work, I was there.. all day long, walking in town, seeing boys.![]() |
00:10:16 | One day, there was a notice.![]() |
00:10:20 | Outside the townhall.. that anyone of the refugees from the camps who wants to emigrate to America or England or Canada, should register.![]() |
00:10:41 | So everyone, there were thirty-odd of us in town, everybody registered.![]() |
00:10:50 | Later on, another notice, everyone who registered should come at such and such date to the townhall, there will be a.. you know, transport waiting for you. And so on..![]() |
00:11:10 | So we all, you know, happy, you know, took everything, our suitcase.![]() |
00:11:18 | There was an American transport vehicle, with a, two, one G.I. and the driver.![]() |
00:11:32 | And we each caught an iron ration, you know, the Americans have the food, an iron ration. Food..![]() |
00:11:40 | On you go, onto the, we are driving, we are going to England.![]() |
00:11:46 | One chap was wearing a top hat he got somewhere, and it was trying and singing "Wir fahren nach England.." You know, everybody so happy.![]() |
00:11:57 | About lunchtime, we came to a village called Winzer. Do you know the area?![]() |
00:12:04 | IV: A little bit, but I don't..![]() |
00:12:06 | SB: Near, near Deggendorf.![]() |
00:12:09 | We came to Winzer, the lorry stops, guards, Polish soldiers and American soldiers.![]() |
00:12:21 | Open, drive in, the G.I. comes out, "All down."![]() |
00:12:26 | I said, "We are not going down, we are going to England." We thought, we are driving to -![]() |
00:12:31 | He said, "I don't know where you're going, I've got here my orders, I should drive you here and leave you here and come back, come back empty. You get off here."![]() |
00:12:44 | I said, "Where, where are we?" We were in the Polish military camp.![]() |
00:12:50 | We had to get off, we had no option.![]() |
00:12:55 | We got off, a Polish officer came, he said, "Come, I'll show you where you are going to live."![]() |
00:13:03 | Two barracks, we had.![]() |
00:13:05 | And he said, "Your food, you get together with the soldiers. You queue up and you will get your food in the morning, at lunchtime."![]() |
00:13:17 | We had quite little ones as well, teenagers and little ones..![]() |
00:13:24 | We didn't like it.![]() |
00:13:26 | Because - Oh, yes, they said, "You are not allowed out from the camp. You have to stay where you are."![]() |
00:13:34 | So it's being from one concentration camp back into the other..![]() |
00:13:41 | We stayed there like this, maybe two weeks.![]() |
00:13:47 | One day, a woman from the UNRRA arrived.![]() |
00:13:50 | And she called us together, she said, she comes from UNRRA, we are the responsibility of the UNRRA.![]() |
00:14:05 | We are displaced persons.![]() |
00:14:05 | And.. she's coming to see whether we are alright. Whether we need anything. She heard we're here.![]() |
00:14:15 | So we told her, first of all, we don't have enough blankets.![]() |
00:14:21 | We want radio. We don't know what's going on in the world. We are liberated and we still don't know anything.![]() |
00:14:28 | And most of all, we want permission to go out whenever we like. We are free men.![]() |
00:14:36 | Why should we be in prison?![]() |
00:14:40 | So, she said, she wrote all this down.![]() |
00:14:46 | She said, "I will be back soon with what, I know, what you need."![]() |
00:14:53 | She came back the following week - oh yes, we said, and of course, we want to go to England.![]() |
00:14:59 | She said, "I don't know anything about you going to England. But I make inquiries."![]() |
00:15:05 | When she came back, she brought a radio, she brought blankets.![]() |
00:15:11 | And she said, you have permission to leave the camp whenever you like.![]() |
00:15:16 | The food, you can fetch the food in a kessel, what do you call it?![]() |
00:15:22 | And.. distribute it yourself, because we wanted extra food for the youngsters, for the people who cleaned, who volunteered to clean and so on.![]() |
00:15:35 | We got everything.![]() |
00:15:37 | She said, "As far as it's going to England, you won't go to England from here, but there is a DP camp in Indersdorf, in a place called Kloster Indersdorf. If you want to go there, maybe it will be possible."![]() |
00:15:54 | So we said yes, we will go anyway.![]() |
00:15:58 | And that's how we eventually came to Indersdorf.![]() |
00:16:09 | Not all of us.![]() |
00:16:11 | Because some of the people in Winzer, in the Polish military camp, escaped during the night. So the two lots of guards escaped.![]() |
00:16:23 | And the rest decided to wait and see what happens.![]() |
00:16:28 | Now, that was.. the story how we got to Indersdorf. From Indersdorf, I have to tell the story to ..![]() |
00:16:42 | IV: Okay, so, eh. Then, before making a little break, I can ask some questions again.![]() |
00:16:51 | SB: Yes.![]() |
00:16:51 | IV: I promised you, just tell your story, then some questions.![]() |
00:16:55 | So, let me say, I did many interviews with Holocaust -![]() |
00:17:00 | SB: Can you come a...![]() |
00:17:02 | IV: Speak louder? Can you understand me? You can hear me?![]() |
00:17:07 | SB: Ja.![]() |
00:17:07 | IV: I did quite a lot of interviews with people who survived the Holocaust.![]() |
00:17:13 | And I think your story, it's quite a sad story, but I never met somebody who made it such a funny story.![]() |
00:17:21 | SB: Now, first of all - I have to thank for, my parents, they were good people, they were generous people.![]() |
00:17:32 | And the people who knew them, helped me.![]() |
00:17:35 | Without this help, I don't think I would have survived. And I had luck.![]() |
00:17:43 | I had such luck, I would tell you.. eh.. about a German farmer, you see, Lodz was started as a town by Germans. Not by Poles.![]() |
00:18:04 | Lodz was a little village, a nothing.![]() |
00:18:07 | Then somebody, it was under Russia, it wasn't the Polish government then, this was beginning of 19th century, you know.![]() |
00:18:18 | It was Russia, it also part - oh!![]() |
00:18:22 | IV: Jetzt müssen wir einfach unterbrechen, weil sonst -![]() |
00:18:24 | SB: Somebody had this idea that it would be suitable to start a textile business because it had, for textile, you need particular good, good water.![]() |
00:18:36 | And they got plenty of land with nothing there. Nothing. It..![]() |
00:18:43 | So, the Polish or the Russian government, whoever it was, invited German manifacturers.![]() |
00:18:52 | They gave them the land for nothing.![]() |
00:18:56 | Money to build the factories.![]() |
00:19:00 | Great advantages they had.![]() |
00:19:03 | And German factories came, manifacturers came, established a wonderful textile business.![]() |
00:19:13 | Big, Lodz was a big manufacturer.![]() |
00:19:16 | And of course, Jews came after, afterwards.![]() |
00:19:21 | Also manufacturers but the biggest ones were German factories, Scheibler and so on. And the lingua franca in the textile eh business, was German.![]() |
00:19:33 | Everybody spoke German.![]() |
00:19:36 | And eh, Lodz was actually under German occupation for a while in the First World War.![]() |
00:19:42 | So, also following the, following the manufacturers were German farmers, were also poor then, and they got land and they, all villages around were German.![]() |
00:19:59 | And in the business, my father was buying from German villages, their cooperatives.![]() |
00:20:08 | So, a German farmer would deliver every day, you know, cream and cheese and all products from the cooperative. For years.![]() |
00:20:22 | And of course, the men who delivered it, became friends, you know, they spoke only German. With my father.![]() |
00:20:27 | And the man was coming every day, the same man, on friday, he was coming to collect the money, we sat down, my father, drink coffee, smoke the pipe, you know. And talk.![]() |
00:20:42 | When the German occupied Lodz, on the 6th of eh.. what was it.. of October, there was no food in town.![]() |
00:20:57 | People were running around trying to buy, you know, food.![]() |
00:21:01 | He arrived in a big waggon, like - two ladders on each side, a long waggon, full of food.![]() |
00:21:10 | Big loafs, full, like big, like big wheels, you know, bread and butter and fruit and vegetables, everything he brought.![]() |
00:21:24 | He unloaded this, unloaded this, my father thanked him very much.![]() |
00:21:31 | And said, "How much?"![]() |
00:21:33 | "What do you mean, how much for the goods?", he said. "When I've got plenty of food and I hear my friend has no food, you are going to pay me no, I am not accepting for-?"![]() |
00:21:49 | So he said, "I will be back again."![]() |
00:21:53 | A few days or the following week, he was back again, again with food.![]() |
00:21:59 | This time, he sat down with my father, I remember, he was sitting and crying.![]() |
00:22:04 | My father told us later, the Polish army abducted his daughter, he had only, he didn't have a wife, his, he was a widower, abducted his daughter.![]() |
00:22:18 | And he said, his son will be called up in the German army. He said, "Who is going to help on the farm?"![]() |
00:22:24 | He said, "I can't manage, I'm an old man." He was crying like a baby.![]() |
00:22:29 | He said, "And I can't come here, can't deliver you more food. The Nazis and the corps refused to give me permission to deliver food to you."![]() |
00:22:39 | So, this was a parting.![]() |
00:22:45 | He was such a good man, such a good friend of, of my family.![]() |
00:22:53 | IV: So, you told us your story. But what happened to the rest of your family?![]() |
00:22:59 | SB: Ah. I know, I didn't know till 1960s, when I heard, two of my cousins were alive in Israel.![]() |
00:23:14 | We went to Israel, I met them, they were, they were from a small town near Lodz.![]() |
00:23:21 | But during the war, they were living in Lodz.![]() |
00:23:25 | And they could tell me everything.![]() |
00:23:28 | They said my mother and sister were sent to Auschwitz, together with them.![]() |
00:23:34 | They were in the same barrack.![]() |
00:23:36 | My mother was eh, selected. Because she was older.![]() |
00:23:43 | And when they came to collect her, my sister went with her, they tried to keep her back.![]() |
00:23:50 | They said to her, "Do you know where they're going?"![]() |
00:23:53 | My mother turned around and said, "I know where I'm going. Wherever my mother is going, I am going."![]() |
00:24:00 | So I know, where my mother went.![]() |
00:24:02 | My father, I think probably, he was selected when he first was taken to Auschwitz because the whole Lodzer Ghetto was transported to Auschwitz.![]() |
00:24:15 | Some were selected, some were taken to work.![]() |
00:24:18 | So I guess, my brother, I knew from the camp, what happened to him. So I know what.. And I..![]() |
00:24:28 | Distant family, like I had, two, two of my father's cousins were living in Berlin.![]() |
00:24:36 | They were sent out before, they were thrown out from Germany because they had Polish passports.![]() |
00:24:44 | One eh, escaped to, to Montevideo.![]() |
00:24:50 | He survived the war.![]() |
00:24:53 | And his grandson is still living in Montevideo.![]() |
00:24:58 | My son went to see him.![]() |
00:25:00 | And eh, all the family disappeared. Nobody. The close family, I'm the only survivor. Cousins, uncles, nobody.![]() |
00:25:16 | IV: Maybe, just some sentences - later on, from Indersdorf, you went to England?![]() |
00:25:22 | SB: Pardon?![]() |
00:25:23 | IV: From, from Indersdorf, later, you got to England.![]() |
00:25:27 | SB: I - ?![]() |
00:25:29 | IV: You got to England, from Indersdorf - Maybe just some sentences, what happened, in England.![]() |
00:25:38 | SB: Yes, yes. So we stayed in eh, in Indersdorf.![]() |
00:25:46 | As I said, this is a story.. We stayed there and one day, it was lovely, they really brought us back into civilisation.![]() |
00:26:00 | I will give an illustration, when we were in Neunburg, we got ration cards. For food.![]() |
00:26:10 | I remember they gave us double, the food that the Germans, the Americans..![]() |
00:26:21 | So they came, when we got the ration cards, the next day we went out to collect meat.![]() |
00:26:28 | We didn't have a piece of meat for five years. I didn't taste meat.![]() |
00:26:34 | I didn't know what meat was.![]() |
00:26:36 | And eh, we went to the butcher. Queue, we came in, we said "This", said "This", you know.![]() |
00:26:44 | He told us what we can have.![]() |
00:26:46 | He made up, "It will be 12 marks."![]() |
00:26:49 | We said, "What, what? What do you mean, 12 marks?"![]() |
00:26:53 | He said, "12 marks, money."![]() |
00:26:55 | We didn't know money, we never saw money, for five years, we didn't know that we need to pay.![]() |
00:27:03 | But they were very understanding, they let us go.![]() |
00:27:09 | So, next day, we said to the Americans who were outside, "Look, we have no money, we can't expect the people to give us this, we got ration cards, we have to pay."![]() |
00:27:22 | They gave, the Americans with their own pocket, we didn't know what money was.![]() |
00:27:30 | So we were wild, we were naive and.. we had different ideas.![]() |
00:27:37 | In the camp, under the Nazis, truth was a lie and a lie was a truth, you never knew.![]() |
00:27:48 | They were telling like my brother volunteered to go to Germany, from the Lodzer Ghetto.![]() |
00:27:53 | They said, "Oh, you going to work in Germany, you get a good salary, you have plenty to eat and you'll be able to ride home..."![]() |
00:28:01 | And you know, lies, lies.![]() |
00:28:04 | Everything, like telling is "If you are tired, you will be driven, you know.." Driving to be shot. You know.![]() |
00:28:15 | So you didn't know what was a truth and we had to lie to, to survive.![]() |
00:28:21 | And this.. right after, you don't.. you become again civilised at all. It took a long time.![]() |
00:28:31 | When we were already in England and they take us on a holiday, it was practical a year after, they gave us a holiday.![]() |
00:28:45 | And eh.. Breakfast, the waiter came in with bread, before, he put a plate full of white bread on the table. And before you went to the door, it was gone.![]() |
00:28:58 | We called him back.![]() |
00:28:59 | And this several times, just gobbled up, this was already a year after, we were still...![]() |
00:29:05 | It took time. To get back.![]() |
00:29:10 | And then of course, I went to college and you know, so..![]() |
00:29:18 | But it took time, believe me. We were raw. You know, they can turn a human into inhumans.![]() |
00:29:33 | IV: OK, shall we make a break to say hello to Anna?![]() |
00:29:38 | SB: Ja.![]() |
00:29:38 | IV: Then..![]() |
Subtitles for "AGFl_AV.22.0814.mp4"
00:00:00 | SB: I was worried. Because as, in the camps, they say it was that every changes for the worse.![]() |
00:00:11 | Going from one camp to another, I was worse, it's going to be worse than the previous one.![]() |
00:00:17 | That was my first impression, it was what was going through my mind.![]() |
00:00:22 | IV: And, so can you tell a little bit about the hygienic standard, about a lot of people who've been there.![]() |
00:00:31 | I think it was very overcrowded, the last weeks.![]() |
00:00:34 | SB: Where?![]() |
00:00:34 | IV: In Flossenbürg.![]() |
00:00:36 | So, the situation...![]() |
00:00:38 | SB: No, in.. In the children's barrack, in barrack 16, it was overcrowded, of course, like in other barrack as you said.![]() |
00:00:49 | But we did not mix much with the rest because we went out, we were counted and end.![]() |
00:01:00 | And then went out to work.![]() |
00:01:03 | I said, you usually volunteered, you volunteered to one thing, whatever you can find.![]() |
00:01:10 | Rather than walk about, doing nothing.![]() |
00:01:13 | IV: So, do you think the situation in the children's barrack was more comfortable than in the rest of the camp?![]() |
00:01:23 | SB: The situation in the children's barrack, it was overcrowded.![]() |
00:01:30 | But until he found out that we were Jewish, it was reasonable.![]() |
00:01:39 | You know, you could live, that was that way.![]() |
00:01:42 | Without much.. I didn't, I wasn't afraid I'm going to be hit.![]() |
00:01:48 | He was behaving like a human being, this Kapo. But he was wild, he was the oldest man I have seen in any camp.![]() |
00:01:58 | He was an old man.![]() |
00:02:00 | His, his eyes, particular, they were the color of bleached denim.![]() |
00:02:08 | Really, they were matt, not glossy.![]() |
00:02:12 | He had this mop of grey hair.![]() |
00:02:15 | He must have been a criminal, he was a criminal, he had the green triangle. Oh..![]() |
00:02:25 | IV: And being in this children's barrack, did you see what happened in the rest of the camp?![]() |
00:02:32 | SB: No, no.![]() |
00:02:37 | In the camp, you were quite contained.![]() |
00:02:40 | For instance, in Auschwitz, you were not allowed to go into a strange barrack.![]() |
00:02:49 | I went with, you know, he was a barber, so he had some protection, you know. But you were not allowed.![]() |
00:03:02 | IV: And so, the time you've been spending in Flossenbürg, that have been the last weeks of the camp.![]() |
00:03:10 | SB: Of the camp, yes.![]() |
00:03:13 | IV: And so eh, did you have the idea before that the end was near? The end of the war or the liberation came?![]() |
00:03:19 | SB: We knew the end of the war is somewhere near.![]() |
00:03:26 | We also knew it's the same token that it doesn't take long for us to be killed if they so wish.![]() |
00:03:34 | Any moment, any day. You know..![]() |
00:03:40 | You, you were not liberated till you were liberated, even after the liberation we were still scared because the SS were still lurking in the woods.![]() |
00:03:55 | And we knew it.![]() |
00:03:58 | So, it didn't feel safe till I was on the road. Going, you know, trying to get to Neunburg.![]() |
00:04:13 | IV: So in your story, you told me a lot of things that helped you to survive.![]() |
00:04:20 | SB: Yeah.![]() |
00:04:21 | IV: I think that's physical survive - what did you think, what helped you to survive mentally?![]() |
00:04:30 | SB: It's very, very difficult, how I survived mentally.![]() |
00:04:36 | I suppose, you know, quite a lot of it. For me, contained, I did not mix much. With other prisoners.![]() |
00:04:53 | I managed over to preserve my strength, not doing what I don't have to do. Even talking was an effort. You know, even talking.![]() |
00:05:12 | IV: And what do you think, in all this time, in all these camps on your odyssey, what do you think, what was the most hardest and terrible thing for you?![]() |
00:05:24 | SB: The worst time?![]() |
00:05:25 | IV: Yes.![]() |
00:05:26 | SB: Was the camp in Poland.![]() |
00:05:30 | People will probably laugh at me when I say have been to Birkenau and Auschwitz, to say the worst camp in Poland. I will tell you why.![]() |
00:05:42 | In Poland I was for three years in the camp.![]() |
00:05:45 | Now, in three years we didn't have a change of shirt.![]() |
00:05:51 | We were eaten alive by vermin.![]() |
00:06:03 | We worked with Poles, they were not of much help at all.![]() |
00:06:09 | And there, you had hunger on top, on top of the hard work and hunger, you couldn't sleep because of the vermin.![]() |
00:06:19 | And that's why the outbreak of typhus..![]() |
00:06:28 | IV: Well, okay. I will change -![]() |
00:06:33 | SB: This is personal -![]() |
00:06:39 | AA: Salek, in Neunburg vorm Wald, you were offered a chance to immigrate.![]() |
00:06:47 | How did you get the chance to immigrate to England or the USA?![]() |
00:06:52 | SB: Now, I told you the story about when we were in Neunburg, the commandant, the American commandant of the town put up a notice![]() |
00:07:03 | that anyone of the DPs, or people from the camp, who want to emigrate should come register.![]() |
00:07:14 | That we have a chance to emigrate to America, to England, to Canada, to Australia.![]() |
00:07:20 | Anyway, everybody put down, registered.![]() |
00:07:25 | Several weeks afterwards, another notice appeared that the people who registered should come with their belongings at such and such date.![]() |
00:07:36 | We arrived there, to the townhall, outside the townhall.![]() |
00:07:40 | There were a large American lorry, a G.I. and the driver. And eh, we got into, onto the lorry, they didn't say much.![]() |
00:07:52 | Gave us an iron ration each, a box which food...![]() |
00:07:59 | And off we went and one of the chap had a top hat he brought and he started singing, you know, "Wir fahren nach England."![]() |
00:08:08 | So, this chap actually escaped from Winzer, they drove us to Winzer, to the village.![]() |
00:08:17 | He drove us, it was guarded, outside with Polish soldiers and American soldiers.![]() |
00:08:22 | Full armed, outside.![]() |
00:08:24 | We drove in and eh.. the driver got out and said, "Down!"![]() |
00:08:31 | So we said, "Down? We're going to England?"![]() |
00:08:35 | He said, "Look, I've got my orders here, it says I should bring you here and come back empty. Down!"![]() |
00:08:41 | So we got down, a Polish officer appeared and said, "I will show you to your quarters. You got two barracks."![]() |
00:08:49 | There were two barracks, a little bit away from the.. we got the two barracks, not enough blankets.![]() |
00:08:56 | Nothing else.![]() |
00:08:59 | So, oh yes - and they said, "You are not allowed to leave the camp."![]() |
00:09:04 | That's odd, from one concentration camp to another.![]() |
00:09:10 | "And you take your food with the soldiers, you just join the queue."![]() |
00:09:15 | So, we did. We didn't like it.![]() |
00:09:18 | After staying there for a couple of weeks or so, a lady from the UNRRA appeared.![]() |
00:09:26 | She introduced herself that she's from the UNRRA and.. She has the jurisdiction of the people from the camps.![]() |
00:09:39 | And she came to inquire whether we are right, whether we need anything.![]() |
00:09:44 | So we told her, we need blankets, we want radio and complained.![]() |
00:09:52 | Complained about not allowed to leave the camp and to have to queue for our food with the soldiers.![]() |
00:09:59 | She said, "Alright, leave it with me, I'll be back next week."![]() |
00:10:04 | Which she did.![]() |
00:10:06 | She brought radio, she brought extra blankets.![]() |
00:10:10 | And she said, "You are allowed to go in and out of the camp at wish.![]() |
00:10:16 | As far as going to England, while you stay here, no chance.![]() |
00:10:23 | But", she said, "I know of a place where, if you are willing to go there, you might be able to emigrate from there. So, would you like to?"![]() |
00:10:38 | Everybody, like one man, "Yes!" That's how we got to Indersdorf.![]() |
00:10:45 | AA: And how did you get there? On an open lorry?![]() |
00:10:48 | SB: From.. eh, you mean, from -![]() |
00:10:55 | AA: From Winzer to Indersdorf?![]() |
00:10:57 | SB: From Winzer - I can't remember. In a lorry, yes, an open lorry.![]() |
00:11:00 | AA: And when you arrived, how was the reception?![]() |
00:11:04 | SB: When we arrived, it was stairs up, there was lined up, you know, the management.![]() |
00:11:10 | Lilian Robbins and Marx and you know, they were all lined up there.![]() |
00:11:16 | And shortly, you know, she made, she made a short speech, put us at ease.![]() |
00:11:25 | We went in, were told first to have a bath.![]() |
00:11:29 | AA: Oh, that's -![]() |
00:11:31 | SB: Right, we went downstairs to the bath.![]() |
00:11:33 | It, it was not, eh.. the nuns, it was the nurses.![]() |
00:11:42 | AA: But did, did they expect you to be babies? Why did they, why did they want to bathe you?![]() |
00:11:48 | SB: Why did they want to bathe in every camp? You couldn't make a move without, without going, going to the bath. Probably they knew, that, probably we're not very clean.![]() |
00:12:02 | Not far wrong, they were not far wrong.![]() |
00:12:05 | I was saying, you know, the odd thing was, people couldn't understand, we were not civilised.![]() |
00:12:17 | We lost our civilisation there.![]() |
00:12:20 | When we arrived in Neunburg, eh, I told the gentleman before, you know, we got ration cards.![]() |
00:12:30 | We queued up for the meat, I remember, I was queueing and got in you know, and showed him what we want, parceled up the meat and said, "It's so many marks."![]() |
00:12:43 | I said, "What marks? What's marks?"![]() |
00:12:47 | He said, "Money." - "Money?" We didn't see money, had no money for four years. What was money..![]() |
00:12:54 | You know, like this. We were completely different.![]() |
00:13:01 | AA: And, eh, but you wanted to have a bath there?![]() |
00:13:06 | SB: Oh yes.![]() |
00:13:08 | AA: And then, what kind of clothes did you get?![]() |
00:13:13 | SB: Well, I, I had my clothes, I was quite happy with the "KL" was removed, was turned inside out.![]() |
00:13:24 | AA: The jacket, the jacket with the "KL"?![]() |
00:13:27 | SB: Yes. I had another suit too, so they gave us white sweaters.![]() |
00:13:34 | Each one of us got a white sweater.![]() |
00:13:36 | There's one of the pictures when you see a white sweater, it was likely to have been, you know, with us in Winzer. In Winzer.![]() |
00:13:46 | AA: And the meals, do you remember the meals? The food there?![]() |
00:13:52 | SB: No. I can't remember really the food.![]() |
00:13:57 | AA: And the dormitories?![]() |
00:14:00 | SB: The dormitories I remember.![]() |
00:14:01 | I was sleeping opposite the door, the second bed.![]() |
00:14:09 | You know, they were that way, lined up.![]() |
00:14:13 | And Bessermann was sleeping in the corner, I remember, when (???) what Bessermann said, when he had a friend, a Polish girl.![]() |
00:14:25 | AA: Yes, please tell us.![]() |
00:14:27 | SB: He stood up on the bed actually when he shouted it out.![]() |
00:14:31 | AA: But an UNRRA person was against it, there was a love affair between Bessermann and this Polish girl. And eh -![]() |
00:14:42 | SB: No, it... Having read the list of the girls, of the Polish girls, their names, their date of births.![]() |
00:14:54 | You had a lot who were a) they were not Catholics, they were Protestants.![]() |
00:14:59 | b) They were not even Polish.![]() |
00:15:03 | Some.. they were, could have been Ukrainians, Lithuanians.![]() |
00:15:10 | And the Poles did not like, they didn't like Protestants, they didn't like anyone foreign and so on.![]() |
00:15:18 | So, a lot of the girls felt ostracised, not wanted.![]() |
00:15:23 | And the Jewish girls did not mind, they didn't ask whether they are Ukrainian or Lithuanian or Protestant or whatever.![]() |
00:15:33 | So, they came in, they chatted, you know, and so on. So.. that does not.![]() |
00:15:40 | You look at the pictures, you won't see a Polish youth, maybe the little ones.![]() |
00:15:48 | But the youth with whom we - in any of the pictures with us. They just ignored us.![]() |
00:15:57 | AA: The Polish boys and -![]() |
00:15:59 | SB: The Polish youth, they were Polish youths.![]() |
00:16:03 | Maybe our age or maybe a little bit younger but they ignored us completely.![]() |
00:16:09 | AA: And there was a football match between -![]() |
00:16:11 | SB: Oh yes, yes, and that was started - they started off by calling us names and so on.![]() |
00:16:18 | And of course, a fight broke out and no more match. Mr Marx, poor Mr Marx. He started it..![]() |
00:16:29 | AA: But the relationship between the Jewish boys and the Polish girls was better?![]() |
00:16:35 | SB: Oh yes, the Polish - maybe some Polish girls didn't like Jews, they just did not fraternise.![]() |
00:16:41 | But most of them, as I said, they probably did not consider them as Polish at all.![]() |
00:16:48 | AA: And was Kurt Klappholz, was he your leader, somehow? Kurt? Kurt, was he the leader of your group?![]() |
00:16:58 | SB: He, he was the leader in as much, he was nominally in charge of the dormitory.![]() |
00:17:07 | So, he was a leader.![]() |
00:17:10 | He was the only one who spoke a bit of English.![]() |
00:17:16 | AA: And can you describe this situation here?![]() |
00:17:21 | SB: Ah, I remember it but I can't describe what it was about. But looking at it, like yourself, this represents (???), you can't move out.![]() |
00:17:38 | I'm - this is the lousing party, spraying.. And this is the shaving, cut your hair.![]() |
00:17:49 | It represented something like it.![]() |
00:17:51 | AA: And when did you perform this? Eisenhower, Eisenhower wanted to come.![]() |
00:17:57 | SB: Oh yes, this was a performance meant for General Eisenhower.![]() |
00:18:03 | But then we decided, you know, we were upset he couldn't come, that we will carry on, Miss Robins decided it.![]() |
00:18:11 | We will carry on as if he was here - we go through with the play, with the singing, everything else.![]() |
00:18:19 | AA: And for this event, you drew a picture of Eisenhower?![]() |
00:18:26 | SB: Yes.![]() |
00:18:28 | AA: And it's in this picture here?![]() |
00:18:30 | SB: Yes, it's there, at the bottom. In the flame.![]() |
00:18:36 | AA: So you were always good at drawing?![]() |
00:18:40 | SB: Ah, yes, I always liked it, I enjoyed it as well as I enjoyed my job.![]() |
00:18:45 | AA: And, what did you want to show Eisenhower with this play here?![]() |
00:18:54 | You wanted to show Eisenhower what you had gone through?![]() |
00:18:58 | SB: Maybe, I can't remember the details, really not. Probably someone else thought of the play. I was just a player.![]() |
00:19:10 | AA: And Kurt Klappholz wanted to conduct the choir.![]() |
00:19:15 | SB: Yes, he was always good at it. When he listened to music, he was always going like this, you know.![]() |
00:19:22 | AA: And it was "My bonnie is over the ocean"?![]() |
00:19:26 | SB: Pardon?![]() |
00:19:27 | AA: He wanted to conduct "My bonnie is over the ocean"?![]() |
00:19:30 | SB: Yes, yes, that's right, he was conducting....![]() |
00:19:33 | AA: And do you remember the different UNRRA people? The different UNRRA people?![]() |
00:19:41 | SB: I didn't know them, I knew them by sight.![]() |
00:19:45 | By sight, I only was in touch, I spoke to Mr Marx or Lilian Robbins, I couldn't speak English.![]() |
00:19:54 | Marx, it was Marx who conversed a bit in German and eh, Lilian Robbins too...![]() |
00:20:02 | AA: And but you remembered all the different names, do you remember Greta Fischer?![]() |
00:20:07 | SB: No, before, before we left - I don't, what, maybe I do it -![]() |
00:20:13 | I went around and asked them to give me their name and addresses, until then I didn't know. They did it, you know, a piece of paper.![]() |
00:20:25 | AA: Ah, and that's how you had all the addresses.![]() |
00:20:28 | SB: That's right, that's right. Their names.. But before, I didn't know their names.![]() |
00:20:34 | Some of them were teachers - again, I didn't even take part in the lessons.![]() |
00:20:41 | I was, I was very apart from most people.![]() |
00:20:47 | I had, when I had friends, I had very loyal friends but few. Always.![]() |
00:20:53 | AA: Yes, tell us about your friendship.![]() |
00:20:57 | The friends were very, very important.![]() |
00:21:00 | SB: No, certain people, all kinds of people, I had, I was very good friends with all kinds of people.![]() |
00:21:10 | I had friends from, from a Lord to - yes, no joke. I was very good friends with a man who eventually became Lord.![]() |
00:21:23 | AA: But here in England, later?![]() |
00:21:24 | SB: Yes. He was English born.![]() |
00:21:27 | AA: And who were your best friends in Indersdorf? Who were your best friends - ?![]() |
00:21:32 | SB: In, in Indersdorf, of course, Kurt who was the one I met and Elli Rottenberg.![]() |
00:21:42 | I met them at the same time in a hospital.![]() |
00:21:45 | When I went, I went, I broke my arm and they suggested I stay in the hospital, so I said, "Alright, I will only sleep there but not during the day."![]() |
00:22:00 | Next to me was Alec in bed, so I told the people they should give my food to Alec.![]() |
00:22:08 | Which he liked very much. Food was food.![]() |
00:22:12 | And eh, on the way out, I met Kurt. And we started talking and from then on, you know.![]() |
00:22:20 | And these were the first two people.![]() |
00:22:25 | AA: And you stayed, remained friends all your life?![]() |
00:22:30 | SB: Oh yes, very much so.![]() |
00:22:33 | AA: And what about the nuns? Do you remember the nuns at the monastery?![]() |
00:22:40 | SB: Yes, I do remember them of course.![]() |
00:22:43 | AA: And how were they? Did they understand -![]() |
00:22:46 | SB: Oh, they, they were always busy but they didn't see you.![]() |
00:22:50 | They didn't give you a smile or stop to say a word, nothing, they were just - going wherever they had to go, do what's, what they wanted to do or they had to do.![]() |
00:23:05 | AA: And we have a picture with Kurt, Kurt bathing a baby.![]() |
00:23:11 | Did you also helped with the babies?![]() |
00:23:13 | SB: No, I didn't actually. I don't even know where it was, it's not on purpose, I just..![]() |
00:23:28 | AA: And then you got a letter, when you went to England, you got a letter.![]() |
00:23:33 | SB: Everybody got the same letter. Who went to England, from Miss Robins. Everybody.![]() |
00:23:40 | AA: And do you remember what was in the letter?![]() |
00:23:44 | SB: Roughly.![]() |
00:23:48 | AA: Did you keep this letter?![]() |
00:23:50 | SB: Yes. But now, you are in possession of it or somebody.![]() |
00:23:56 | AA: And the situation when the picture was taken, for your identity. For your identity card.![]() |
00:24:08 | When this picture was taken.![]() |
00:24:09 | SB: Yes, this identity card again which is now in Flossenbürg or, or I don't know, Indersdorf.![]() |
00:24:18 | AA: And you were the person who drew all -![]() |
00:24:21 | SB: I was writing on, on all of them except for the, you look at the pictures of the Polish people, that's a different writing.![]() |
00:24:30 | AA: That's a different writing?![]() |
00:24:31 | SB: Yah.![]() |
00:24:34 | AA: So you wrote these names here?![]() |
00:24:38 | SB: Right.![]() |
00:24:39 | AA: Many of the names you wrote on the -![]() |
00:24:41 | SB: I will tell you which I - ah, that's a little one, that's different to read.![]() |
00:24:54 | No, even, even - you know, Grussman, you look at the writing from Grussman.![]() |
00:25:03 | AA: And that's different?![]() |
00:25:05 | SB: This is different writing, I did not write..![]() |
00:25:08 | AA: And you wrote all the names for the Jewish? For the Jewish?![]() |
00:25:12 | SB: She wasn't. It's a she.![]() |
00:25:14 | AA: No, she was not.![]() |
00:25:16 | SB: It was a she. And she was not Polish either. Sinaida. Her name's Sinaida.![]() |
00:25:29 | This is a Polish boy, this is a Polish girl.![]() |
00:25:34 | Yeah, these two.![]() |
00:25:38 | AA: And, is this your handwriting here? With the Polish -![]() |
00:25:44 | SB: Polish, that's not my writing.![]() |
00:25:46 | AA: Oh, only the Jewish?![]() |
00:25:48 | SB: No, no.![]() |
00:25:50 | AA: But for example, eh, Sztajnkeler, Moszek Sztajnkeler -![]() |
00:25:55 | SB: Sztajnkeler is..![]() |
00:25:57 | AA: Ja, that's your handwriting?![]() |
00:25:58 | SB: Yeah. Kleinman is..![]() |
00:26:00 | AA: And how were these pictures taken? How were these pictures taken?![]() |
00:26:08 | SB: I can't, I can't tell you really.![]() |
00:26:12 | I, they were taken outside, not indoors. Outside.![]() |
00:26:19 | I remember that I was writing, then taking the pictures.![]() |
00:26:28 | AA: And eh -![]() |
00:26:30 | SB: We had like an office, Kurt, it was a big room.![]() |
00:26:34 | Kurt, myself, were sitting there in the office. You called it office..![]() |
00:26:44 | We had nothing else to do.![]() |
00:26:46 | AA: And then you went to England? And then you came to England?![]() |
00:26:56 | SB: Yes.![]() |
00:26:59 | AA: And where did you go first? Or how did you come to England?![]() |
00:27:03 | SB: We went - No, we went to a little place called Wintershill Hall which was given by a.. Lord, Jewish Lord, I can't remember his, his name.![]() |
00:27:19 | And it was his residence, he gave up for our use. He gave it, a lovely place.![]() |
00:27:27 | And from there, they sent people, groups to all kinds of places, to Manchester to London, to Scotland, different groups.![]() |
00:27:39 | And they didn't tell us, they told us we're going to London.![]() |
00:27:46 | They didn't tell us it's a religious place. So when we came, I found out it was very religious place.![]() |
00:27:58 | AA: Was it in Finchley Road?![]() |
00:28:00 | SB: Pardon?![]() |
00:28:01 | AA: Was it in Finchley Road?![]() |
00:28:02 | SB: Yes, in Finchley Road. Mostly religious boys.![]() |
00:28:06 | So, after a while, Kurt and Witold Gutt and myself were asked to leave.![]() |
00:28:16 | So, Witold Gutt and myself moved together and Alec volunteered to come with us.![]() |
00:28:25 | AA: And where did you go to then?![]() |
00:28:27 | SB: We, we went to a very nice place actually.![]() |
00:28:31 | In Golders Green.![]() |
00:28:33 | It was near a park and it was quite a modern house, for the time. It has central heating, not many houses had central heating then.![]() |
00:28:43 | And a nice big bathroom.![]() |
00:28:46 | AA: So who was within this group? Alec Ward - ?![]() |
00:28:50 | SB: Pardon?![]() |
00:28:51 | AA: Who was within this group? Who went away from eh, Finchley Road? Who was it? Alec Ward - ?![]() |
00:28:59 | SB: Alec Ward and Witold Gutt and myself, we moved together.![]() |
00:29:05 | Kurt left a bit earlier.![]() |
00:29:07 | And he had a lodging somewhere else, I can't remember where, Belsize Park or something.![]() |
00:29:13 | AA: And eh, so first of all, you were in Wintershill Hall.![]() |
00:29:20 | How long were you in Wintershill Hall then?![]() |
00:29:23 | SB: I can't tell you. Not too long. Eh..![]() |
00:29:34 | I think, maybe a couple of months, at the most.![]() |
00:29:37 | AA: And then -![]() |
00:29:39 | SB: Finchley Road. And from Finchley Road I moved to this place and from this place to, to another place.![]() |
00:29:47 | I - three, four places, we moved between 1945 and eh, 1950.![]() |
00:30:01 | AA: And was it good to be among other survivors? Was it good to be with Kurt and -![]() |
00:30:08 | SB: Oh, we made friends with local people, you know, we lived with people.![]() |
00:30:14 | In some places, very nice people, you know.![]() |
00:30:17 | They were paid, the people were paid by the committee.![]() |
00:30:24 | AA: And what kind of education did you get there?![]() |
00:30:28 | SB: Well, this varied, like Kurt and Witek went to school to take matriculation.![]() |
00:30:36 | Kurt had at first a little job at the photographer.![]() |
00:30:42 | I went straight to college, to art college and I was living in the hostel.![]() |
00:30:49 | And then, I was out of the hostel, still at art college.![]() |
00:30:55 | And Witek was living with (???), he was going to a different school. Different from Kurt.![]() |
00:31:05 | AA: And at the beginning, you got general education? You learned English and math..?![]() |
00:31:10 | SB: No, general education is what I brought from Poland, not much.![]() |
00:31:18 | AA: And then you got a job after art school, you got a job?![]() |
00:31:23 | SB: That's right, I got a job and eh.. In an advertising agency.![]() |
00:31:29 | And I worked for this company for 25 years.![]() |
00:31:34 | The last few years, I was a director of the company.![]() |
00:31:41 | AA: And how important was work for you?![]() |
00:31:45 | SB: Very. I lived for it.![]() |
00:31:48 | I particular, I liked type, I was a typographer too, a very good typographer..![]() |
00:31:57 | I told you that eh, this summer, when was it, probably in August, I had an invitation from my managing director and I had lunch with him and the chief copywriter.![]() |
00:32:16 | And he write, wrote in a book "To Benny, he made a tremendous contribution to CBVS, head of studio".![]() |
00:32:30 | He wrote down, after 38 years later.![]() |
00:32:34 | AA: But you deserve it.![]() |
00:32:37 | SB: I told him, my best time was the last few years.![]() |
00:32:41 | I worked in a small, in a small company, all copywriters, we did not do advertising for newspapers.![]() |
00:32:51 | Brochures and (???) for companies, mainly financial, it was very interesting and terribly nice people.![]() |
00:33:03 | And I enjoyed it, every minute of it.![]() |
00:33:06 | And I would show you a letter I have from the managing director from there.![]() |
00:33:15 | AA: And when did you meet Charlotte?![]() |
00:33:18 | SB: Oh, this, Charlotte I met in the 19-, I met her first in Wintershill Hall but I didn't even speak to her. Because she spoke Hungarian and German and English.![]() |
Subtitles for "AGFl_AV.22.0815.mp4"
00:00:00 | IV2: It's okay? - Okay, okay.![]() |
00:00:03 | SB: The UNRRA was the first step to the rehabilitation.![]() |
00:00:08 | IV2: Why?![]() |
00:00:09 | SB: You, you came into a different - before them, we were (???).![]() |
00:00:14 | We were no, we had no family, nobody to be responsible to.![]() |
00:00:21 | You just run around wild, so to speak.![]() |
00:00:24 | In UNRRA, you had a different atmosphere.![]() |
00:00:28 | More homely, you know, you sat down to a meal.![]() |
00:00:32 | And you talked.![]() |
00:00:35 | You didn't talk loud, you behaved yourself better.![]() |
00:00:39 | You learned again to use a knife and fork which we didn't receive in the camp, never mind, well knife, yes. Never ate with a knife and fork, there was nothing..![]() |
00:00:53 | AA: And so this was a first step to civilisation.![]() |
00:00:57 | SB: That's right. Complete, complete..![]() |
00:01:02 | You know, you felt responsible and you had to keep quiet at certain times.![]() |
00:01:10 | And, you know, it was really, I felt that's, that's one worry was going and another worry was coming, you see.![]() |
00:01:23 | Then came the worry of the future.![]() |
00:01:25 | It was an empty space, you didn't know what the future is going to bring.![]() |
00:01:32 | If you had family, you, like Elek Rottenberg, he knew he had family in Canada, he wanted to take me over with him, we were very close friends.![]() |
00:01:44 | So, you know, he knew roughly what his future is going but I have no where to go, no one to know, it was different, you know, it was a big worry.![]() |
00:02:01 | AA: And was it important to you when you met Charlotte, then?![]() |
00:02:08 | SB: Charlotte was in a similar situation, she had, she still had a step-mother alive in Hungary and three half-sisters.![]() |
00:02:20 | They're probably still alive, not the step-mother.![]() |
00:02:26 | But they, I was worried, what's the future going to bring.![]() |
00:02:31 | I can't go back to Poland, there's nothing to go back for.![]() |
00:02:35 | When I go to England, what will I do in England? I don't know the language or anything, what's going to happen?![]() |
00:02:45 | So, to me, it was a big worry.![]() |
00:02:48 | AA: And how old were you when you came to England?![]() |
00:02:54 | SB: To where?![]() |
00:02:55 | AA: How old were you when you came to England? You were supposed to be under 16.![]() |
00:03:00 | SB: Oh yes, well, 20. '25-'45. I came to England in '45.![]() |
00:03:11 | AA: So then you were 20. And you didn't have anybody in the world?![]() |
00:03:15 | SB: That's right. No one to go to.![]() |
00:03:18 | The whole thing was, you heard about Dr. Friedmann.![]() |
00:03:24 | People took his advice always, he was in charge of us.![]() |
00:03:30 | You know, he was advising people.![]() |
00:03:33 | Then he called me, he said, "What are you going to do?" I said, "Ah, I don't know, you tell me."![]() |
00:03:38 | He said, "What do you like to do?" I said, "(???)" "When you're at school, what was your best subject?" I said, "Drawing."![]() |
00:03:47 | "Alright, well done, drawing."![]() |
00:03:50 | Then he said, "Would you like to go to art college?" I said, "I would love it." And that's it.![]() |
00:03:58 | That's how it started and I liked the art college, I could hardly speak English when I got there but you know, art college students... Soon make friends.![]() |
00:04:12 | AA: And it was good that he asked you?![]() |
00:04:15 | SB: Oh, of course. He was worried about every single person there. He was really involved.![]() |
00:04:27 | AA: And in Wintershill Hall, you already met Charlotte?![]() |
00:04:31 | SB: I saw her but I didn't know her, didn't speak a word to her.![]() |
00:04:35 | She had a circle of friends there, you know.. The Hungarians were always..![]() |
00:04:42 | AA: And then you saw her again?![]() |
00:04:45 | SB: Then I met her at the concert in London.![]() |
00:04:48 | And then, by chance, she also moved to Golders Green. She was living with another girl, also from the camp.![]() |
00:04:57 | And when I was coming home, from college, she would lean out from the window and wave. And I wave back. So..![]() |
00:05:06 | AA: And how important was family for you? And your relationship?![]() |
00:05:11 | SB: Very important. Very important.![]() |
00:05:16 | AA: And then you got a son and Nicholas was born, five years after - on the same day -![]() |
00:05:24 | SB: On the same day as we were married. It was all planned.![]() |
00:05:31 | AA: And eh, if you think of the values in bringing him up. What were the most important values in bringing Nicholas up?![]() |
00:05:43 | SB: When Nicholas -![]() |
00:05:45 | AA: When Nicholas was a child.![]() |
00:05:48 | SB: Well, when he was.. Oviously it was education.![]() |
00:05:52 | And Nicholas went to a local school and eh, he was doing very well on the local school.![]() |
00:06:01 | He became headboy of the whole school, you know.![]() |
00:06:06 | And we wanted to send him to a public school, near us. Haberdashers. Very well known public school.![]() |
00:06:17 | We wanted to send Nicholas to a public school.![]() |
00:06:20 | But the headmistress said, "Oh no, he will never make it. You know, you have to have exam, he will never make it. He is good but you try to, we will get him into a good grammar school."![]() |
00:06:33 | But Charlotte was determined, so she asked Nicholas, "Would you sit the exam?"![]() |
00:06:40 | He didn't have any preparation at all. He said yes.![]() |
00:06:44 | We went along to the school - but it cost me a lot of money for this.![]() |
00:06:48 | Because, if he sat before, when he left school immediately and he did well, he could get a, a grant.![]() |
00:07:00 | You know, the government would pay for his schooling, like this I had to pay.![]() |
00:07:06 | But he passed with glowing colors and he got in. And he was in public school, was a very good school, very good.![]() |
00:07:15 | AA: And in your own home in Poland, was education as important as it was to you here?![]() |
00:07:25 | SB: Frankly, not.![]() |
00:07:28 | It was.. It was more important to get a good job, where you could earn money, rather than education.![]() |
00:07:38 | AA: And eh, did you talk about your experiences in the camps with him?![]() |
00:07:46 | SB: Yes. I was, I was talking when everybody else kept quiet.![]() |
00:07:56 | I was always discussing with Charlotte or with friends who were in camps.. I was always - I talked it out of my system![]() |
00:08:06 | I didn't keep it bottled up. Never.![]() |
00:08:12 | AA: And was it hard for, for Nicholas to understand what you had gone through?![]() |
00:08:18 | SB: No, I don't think so, I don't think it was hard.![]() |
00:08:22 | There were several other boys, in this school, Witold's son was at this school, Roman Holter's son was at this school.![]() |
00:08:35 | And another chap or another chap, all neighbours at this Haberdashers, you know.![]() |
00:08:41 | About five of, of our boys, we called them, were at this school.![]() |
00:08:47 | AA: And they all had survivors as parents?![]() |
00:08:52 | SB: Yeah.![]() |
00:08:53 | AA: So this was part of their everyday life?![]() |
00:08:57 | SB: Yes. This was very important to me.![]() |
00:09:02 | AA: And eh, but it was difficult for Charlotte to talk about what she had gone through?![]() |
00:09:10 | SB: Pardon?![]() |
00:09:13 | AA: What about Charlotte, did she also talk about what she had gone through?![]() |
00:09:17 | SB: Yeah, not - well, Charlotte was all no less than a year in the camps.![]() |
00:09:23 | And eh.. Her experience has been completely different, fortunately.![]() |
00:09:31 | AA: And do you, do you think you are traumatised by the Holocaust? You are certainly traumatised?![]() |
00:09:40 | SB: Yes, of course.![]() |
00:09:42 | AA: And are there pictures that are coming back all the time?![]() |
00:09:45 | SB: Yes. It does. I never forget.![]() |
00:09:49 | Not for one minute of the day or the night. Doesn't leave me.![]() |
00:09:55 | AA: And eh, but was it good to talk about it all the time?![]() |
00:10:01 | SB: I talk about it. Not all the time.![]() |
00:10:05 | AA: But often?![]() |
00:10:07 | SB: People - most people don't like to hear it, you know. They don't like to hear it.![]() |
00:10:17 | AA: And the other survivors you lived with, they wanted to hear it?![]() |
00:10:21 | SB: Some do, some don't.![]() |
00:10:23 | AA: And you were friends with Kurt Klappholz until he died, in 1999?![]() |
00:10:32 | And you talked with him a lot?![]() |
00:10:35 | SB: Oh yes, we talked.![]() |
00:10:37 | Kurt always talked -![]() |
00:10:41 | We talked about - he is an economist, you know, he was an economist that in the camp was a market, equal to the one outside the camp.![]() |
00:10:52 | For instance, in Poland, in the first camps, Starochowice, the price of tobacco, if the price of tobacco went up, it was outside the camp as well.![]() |
00:11:11 | The whole thing - he was amused by the thing, the way the market, you could buy so many cigarettes for a piece of bread or exchanges soup, for instance.![]() |
00:11:24 | You know.. We always, he was always amazed.![]() |
00:11:28 | AA: And he compared the two - to real life.![]() |
00:11:31 | SB: Yes, he said, it operated a market, very similar.![]() |
00:11:38 | Within the camp as outside the camp.![]() |
00:11:42 | AA: And did you ever feel a need for a therapy that you needed a therapy for your - ?![]() |
00:11:53 | SB: That I felt - sorry?![]() |
00:11:55 | AA: That you needed a therapy for your trauma?![]() |
00:11:59 | SB: No, no, never. I - as I said, I talked it out.![]() |
00:12:05 | AA: And is there anything else that you wanted to tell me?![]() |
00:12:13 | SB: Not really.![]() |
00:12:16 | AA: There were a few things outside that you wanted to tell me and then I stopped you.![]() |
00:12:23 | SB: No. If you, you ask question and I answer.![]() |
00:12:29 | AA: Do you remember the building of Indersdorf? Do you remember the building - what it looked like, the building?![]() |
00:12:39 | SB: The building - roughly.![]() |
00:12:44 | AA: And did you play football there?![]() |
00:12:46 | SB: Yes, I played in the football match, the ill-fated football match.![]() |
00:12:53 | But I remember, the building in eh, Neunburg.![]() |
00:12:59 | In Krankenstraße, you wrote to me, this building where Herr Otto Bauer lived.![]() |
00:13:07 | I don't know - was Krankenstraße the actual road the hospital was in? Not..![]() |
00:13:19 | Did you know, in Neunburg there was like a old, like a gate in, the town, an arch? An arch, did you see it?![]() |
00:13:33 | AA: Yes, I saw the arch.![]() |
00:13:36 | SB: Right, behind it, you know, going, coming from outside, there was the eh.. the townhall behind.![]() |
00:13:47 | When you came through, you walked down, it was almost like going slightly down.![]() |
00:13:54 | On the left-hand side, that's where the house of Otto Bauer was.. that this was called Krankenstraße, I don't know.![]() |
00:14:02 | Because the hospital, I met Kurt and Eli was into..., like on a main road, seemed like a little bit out of town.![]() |
00:14:14 | AA: And it was a school that was transformed into a hospital.![]() |
00:14:19 | SB: Was it?![]() |
00:14:20 | AA: Yes.![]() |
00:14:20 | SB: I wouldn't know.![]() |
00:14:21 | AA: Eric Hitter showed us.![]() |
00:14:26 | SB: But, I remember the entrance to Otto Bauer's house was, like a little porch.![]() |
00:14:37 | And there was a double door, it was shut, but if you open the door, there was a big box standing there with bars of soap, for the Americans.![]() |
00:14:49 | AA: And have you already described your breeches and everything?![]() |
00:14:53 | SB: Yes, I told the Gentleman..![]() |
00:15:01 | AA: Okay, thank you.![]() |
00:15:09 | AA: Was Indersdorf important?![]() |
00:15:12 | SB: What was important?![]() |
00:15:14 | AA: Was Indersdorf, had it some influence on your later life?![]() |
00:15:18 | SB: Oh, whether Indersdorf was imporant? Very important.![]() |
00:15:24 | AA: Why?![]() |
00:15:26 | SB: Well, as I said, before this was the first stop towards civilisation, I said.![]() |
00:15:34 | You learned to eat with a fork and knife, you learned to behave towards others.![]() |
00:15:40 | That was Indersdorf.![]() |
00:15:44 | You learned to care, people cared for you.![]() |
00:15:50 | You had somebody to turn to, if you wanted to talk about something.![]() |
00:15:58 | It was very important.![]() |
00:16:00 | The second one of course was Wintershill Hall, when you came into direct contact, everyday contact with people who looked after us.![]() |
00:16:11 | Were refugees from Germany. Young people.![]() |
00:16:16 | And we felt very much on the same level, they were not much older than us.![]() |
00:16:24 | Maybe a couple of years older. Volunteers.![]() |
00:16:28 | AA: And they cared for you?![]() |
00:16:30 | SB: Oh, yes.![]() |
00:16:32 | AA: And later, Marion E. Hutton came to England and you saw her. Kurt an you saw Marion Hutton?![]() |
00:16:41 | SB: Yes, I saw her at - Kurt had a house in Belsize Park and he phoned me up.![]() |
00:16:48 | And I went along and also Jakob Kuczmerski, came along too, we met Miss Hutton.![]() |
00:16:57 | But when Miss Fischer came, he phoned, I couldn't make it then.![]() |
00:17:01 | He phoned me, again..![]() |
00:17:04 | But there were not many of us here, who were in Wintershill Hall.![]() |
00:17:10 | There were a number but dispersed over England, in different places.![]() |
00:17:19 | AA: And did they expect eh, little children when you arrived here?![]() |
00:17:25 | SB: Did they - ?![]() |
00:17:26 | AA: When you arrived here, you were already 20 but they thought you were little children?![]() |
00:17:33 | SB: They, they didn't think, it was just - we had these passports, like, we all had these passports, before we left, a little while, they called in all the passports and they changed the dates.![]() |
00:17:52 | UNRRA, without telling us.![]() |
00:17:54 | They told us that we have to be younger, they couldn't find any people.![]() |
00:17:59 | The, the younger, a lot of them, were, went to Israel, family and America.![]() |
00:18:10 | They had family and they were sent there.![]() |
00:18:13 | And what was left, they couldn't find a thousand people, 710, they all only found.![]() |
00:18:20 | So, they (???)![]() |
00:18:29 | And then in 194-, 1953 when I was naturalised, the British, they sent along a detective from the Home Office to interview, to interview me.![]() |
00:18:45 | And I told him, so they changed, changed it all back.![]() |
00:18:49 | I'm sure they were aware..![]() |
00:18:52 | AA: So now you've got your real birthday -![]() |
00:18:56 | SB: Yes, yes, of course.![]() |
00:18:57 | AA: And inbetween, you were called Benny, Benedikt?![]() |
00:19:02 | SB: Oh.. At work, they called me Benny.![]() |
00:19:06 | Because as someone was surname Edward, they called him Eddy.![]() |
00:19:11 | Someone was Christian, so was called Chris. So I was called Benny.![]() |
00:19:15 | AA: And what is the story behind Salek? Salek?![]() |
00:19:21 | SB: Salek that's what my parents called me, everybody else.![]() |
00:19:24 | It, it is funny, you see, in Jewish law, when a child is born, he's given a name.![]() |
00:19:36 | Usually after his father, either the father side or the mother side or some relation.![]() |
00:19:43 | And a Hebrew name, a Hebrew name because when you are 13, you become Bar Mitzvah, you are called to read the Tora.![]() |
00:19:53 | And you become a man, you know.. And, so every boy had a Hebrew name.![]() |
00:20:03 | And he's registered under his Hebrew name, but the parents call you something different. I was called Salek.![]() |
00:20:10 | But the Hebrew name, I was registered under the Hebrew name, when I came to Auschwitz. And they registered us and he asked me, "What's you -", I remember it,![]() |
00:20:24 | "What's your Hebrew name?" I said, "Isachara." So, he looked at me, said, "Israel, Israel." So it became Israel. So I'm Israel.![]() |
00:20:34 | Oh, it is funny because eh..![]() |
00:20:39 | When I changed my name back, officially, in my passport, it's Salek.![]() |
00:20:48 | So, I forgot to notify the medical authorities.![]() |
00:20:55 | So finished up, I was Salek everywhere but in the surgery, the doctor or the hospital, I was Israel. So I said, "Leave it that way, it doesn't bother me."![]() |
00:21:07 | But then I went to hospital, they have to put up their name, above every patient.![]() |
00:21:16 | And they were very worried because of the Muslim, you know, working there.![]() |
00:21:23 | They were very worried, so they took down everybody's name.![]() |
00:21:34 | AA: And so it wasn't -![]() |
00:21:35 | SB: Because it was dangerous, it still is.![]() |
00:21:38 | I went recently to the hospital, I was very ill recently, and eh..![]() |
00:21:47 | Believe me, they put it again on the board "Benedikt Israel".![]() |
00:21:55 | So I was laughing to myself, "What's going to happen now."![]() |
00:22:02 | AA: And so it's better for you to just call yourself "Salek, Salek Benedikt"?![]() |
00:22:07 | SB: No, that's not, I'm officially, I'm Salek Benedikt, it's on my passport.![]() |
00:22:12 | But for the, my doctors said, "Do you want to change it? I'll change it right now." I said, "No, let it, don't bother me.."![]() |
00:22:21 | AA: And Nicholas, is Nicholas named after anybody -![]() |
00:22:24 | SB: Nicholas, Nicholas is his name, he is Nicholas Alexander. Alexander is Charlotte's father's name.![]() |
00:22:34 | And Nicholas because she thought it's a nice name.![]() |
00:22:39 | AA: And your family at home was not very religious. Were they very religious?![]() |
00:22:45 | SB: Pardon? - No, no, my family was not..![]() |
00:22:49 | My, my father, when he was a younger man, he started in a seminar to become a rabbi.![]() |
00:22:57 | And eh, from there, straight from the seminar, you know, where he was studying theology, you know, he went into the Austrian army.![]() |
00:23:10 | And came out, finished.![]() |
00:23:13 | I was always wondering, why my father, when he came to see me in this little town, the first thing, he said, "I'm going to see the rabbi."![]() |
00:23:29 | So, funny.. My father, seeing the rabbi.![]() |
00:23:34 | He said, "You want to come with me?" I said, "Yes."![]() |
00:23:38 | So I went, I waited in one room, my father went in.![]() |
00:23:43 | Now it occurs to me, it must have been a friend of his from the year when he was studying to be a rabbi, you know, they are all rabbis, so he knew a lot of them.![]() |
00:23:56 | It was a friend from school.![]() |
00:23:59 | AA: And it was not because of religious reasons.![]() |
00:24:01 | SB: No, no, nothing to do with religion, he was not, he was not religious.![]() |
00:24:06 | We were not.. In town or even the restaurant, we had to keep kosher because the customers were the great majority Jewish, in a Jewish neighbourhood.![]() |
00:24:26 | We had three different neighbourhoods, a Jewish neighbourhood, a Polish and the German.![]() |
00:24:35 | AA: And then you had to keep kosher?![]() |
00:24:39 | SB: Oh yeah, they kept together, you know, they all kept together.![]() |
00:24:44 | AA: But it was not important, here in England, to you?![]() |
00:24:47 | SB: Pardon?![]() |
00:24:48 | AA: It was not important to you in England?![]() |
00:24:51 | SB: In England?![]() |
00:24:53 | AA: In England, religion was not important.![]() |
00:24:55 | SB: Oh here, it's not important, here you can live anywhere, you know, not important. But there, it was. In Poland.![]() |
00:25:05 | AA: Okay, thank you.![]() |
00:25:07 | IV: Gut, jetzt würde ich gerne noch ein paar Fotos machen. Zwei oder drei.![]() |