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File "AGFl_AV.22.0739.mp4"
Actual file name | AGFl_AV.22.0739.mp4 |
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Sources | KZ-Gedenkstätte Flossenbürg Signatur: AGFl AV.22.0739 |
File size | 207.37 MB |
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Duration | 00:33:07 |
Aspect ratio | 16:9 |
Subtitles for "AGFl_AV.22.0739.mp4"
00:00:00 | IV: Many people who came here, they've been -![]() |
00:00:02 | SI: Historically, what would you want to know?![]() |
00:00:04 | I came here the first time and quite frankly, I'm regretting coming![]() |
00:00:09 | because memories come back that I don't want to have back.![]() |
00:00:14 | I have them - but as the doors said, by this:![]() |
00:00:19 | I left Flossenbürg but Flossenbürg did not leave me.![]() |
00:00:23 | This is a truth that is forever inscribed in us.![]() |
00:00:28 | I came here for one reason,![]() |
00:00:31 | because I was going to Poland to say goodbye to my parents where they were shot.![]() |
00:00:35 | And Anna Andlauer was probably one of the nicest people and very persistent,![]() |
00:00:42 | sort of talked me into coming and![]() |
00:00:45 | I wanted also Susan to see how and where I was![]() |
00:00:49 | because she's young, she's American, she's not Jewish.![]() |
00:00:53 | She didn't know or she didn't - or she heard but didn't see of the pain we went through.![]() |
00:01:00 | So.. that's why I came but, ah, it's, it will be a great pleasure leaving.![]() |
00:01:06 | Never to come back.![]() |
00:01:08 | IV: Never to come back?![]() |
00:01:09 | SI: No. No.![]() |
00:01:11 | IV: Okay, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your history, where you grow up.![]() |
00:01:15 | SI: I was born in Krakau, Poland, I have a family, the youngest of six children.![]() |
00:01:21 | We lived in Krakau on Kasimir, Kazimierz, which was 99% Jewish, maybe 95% Jewish.![]() |
00:01:31 | I had a very good childhood, till September 7th 1939.![]() |
00:01:35 | When the German army marched in and I stopped being a child and began to grow up.![]() |
00:01:41 | Because the minute, they came into Krakau, trouble started for the Jews.![]() |
00:01:46 | When the Jewish holidays, I think, either Yom Kippur,![]() |
00:01:51 | when they started killing and -{coughs} excuse me - beating people.![]() |
00:01:58 | And one time, they came from, they made the house - the hourse search and they take everything of value.![]() |
00:02:03 | Whether silver or gold, anything, any was of value, nice.![]() |
00:02:09 | Ah, Esszeug, you know, spoons, knives, forks.![]() |
00:02:14 | And we had sort of a middle class, upper middle class lives. ![]() |
00:02:18 | So, they cleaned everything they could.![]() |
00:02:21 | And then Krakau supposed to have been judenrein end of '39.![]() |
00:02:28 | So my father packed us in and we went to a city called Tarnow.![]() |
00:02:33 | And then, and from then on, it got worse and worse and worse till they,![]() |
00:02:39 | and this I don't remember, they took us to be, ah, tested for our Untermenschlichkeit.![]() |
00:02:48 | I guess, measured and weighed and ah, whatever needed, I don't remember that, ah, Jenis, professor, brought that to my attention.![]() |
00:02:59 | And then, three months later, my parents, my two siblings where shot in Tarnow, Poland.![]() |
00:03:06 | Ah, I and, my brother and I run, we lived on the Partère.![]() |
00:03:12 | And I run with my brother and my two sisters, had the Ausweis, stamps, that they apparantly were to live.![]() |
00:03:21 | Everybody else was shot.![]() |
00:03:23 | I believe, if I, my numbers are correct, there were about 10.000 Jews killed that day in Tarnow.![]() |
00:03:31 | And of course then it got from bad to worse to worse, then.![]() |
00:03:34 | The ghetto came about, we moved in the Ghetto, my two sisters, my brother and I.![]() |
00:03:41 | Not together because there was no room to live together.![]() |
00:03:44 | And one of my sisters went on arische Papiere, but she was captured and killed.![]() |
00:03:53 | My brother and sister were taken, I believe to Auschwitz, ![]() |
00:03:57 | When the last - what we called "Action", die Aktion. ![]() |
00:04:03 | I on the other hand, got a job as a Kutscher to the ahm, Oberscharführer Blacher, who's the head of the Ghetto.![]() |
00:04:12 | I was his Kutscher.![]() |
00:04:14 | So I stayed there, I was the last Jew to leave Tarnow.![]() |
00:04:17 | We went to Płaszów. Płaszów was not good for me and I saw kids,![]() |
00:04:23 | the minute you saw children around you, you know they were take steps and kill them off.![]() |
00:04:29 | So I volunteered to go to a place called Mielec.![]() |
00:04:33 | This was a camp where they produced Heinkel, bomber planes.![]() |
00:04:40 | And we stayed there till the Russians started coming.![]() |
00:04:43 | They took us from there to Wieliczka.![]() |
00:04:46 | Aah, Wieliczka, we didn't stay very long because they, they were unable to build the factory that they wanted.![]() |
00:04:54 | And they sent us by train - Wieliczka - Auschwitz.![]() |
00:04:59 | Auschwitz they didn't take us out of the train because apparently, they had a little uprising there and they didn't want any problems.![]() |
00:05:07 | So, they sent us on to Flossenbürg.![]() |
00:05:10 | We came here, we stayed in the - what is it called - isolation barracks.![]() |
00:05:16 | For one week, stark naked, as we were created, we came out of our mothers.![]() |
00:05:24 | They kept us from morning to night outdoors.![]() |
00:05:27 | In the evening we went to the barracks, which had nothing, not even straw to sleep on, just wood.![]() |
00:05:34 | And I think we were in the barracks from eight in the evening to four or five o'clock in the morning.![]() |
00:05:40 | IV: What time of year was it?![]() |
00:05:42 | SI: I, I believe, I don't know whether I'm right or not, I believe it was either late spring or early fall.![]() |
00:05:51 | It was very cold, it was bittercold.![]() |
00:05:54 | The fortune I think for me and a lot of my fellows, was that we were young.![]() |
00:06:00 | Some of the younger people can withstand.![]() |
00:06:03 | Those who were older - I mean older, end of 30s and up - died.![]() |
00:06:08 | Then they took us out, they registered us, and I had a problem.![]() |
00:06:13 | The German turned on us, they always asked "Mother's maiden name?"![]() |
00:06:18 | My mother's maiden name was Wolf.![]() |
00:06:20 | The Oberscharführer that entered the books, didn't like that - "He was Wolf?" ![]() |
00:06:27 | "I didn't know it." And my mother's gone - so he asked me "Bist du Jude?"![]() |
00:06:31 | So whatever I answered, there's no good. When I say no, it's no good.![]() |
00:06:35 | If I say Ja, ist auch nicht schlecht. So I said: "Ich weiß nicht."![]() |
00:06:39 | So he asked me how old I was.![]() |
00:06:42 | And I bluffed and I tried to tell him that I'm 18 but I was - I have a picture.![]() |
00:06:48 | When I was liberated, I was still very short.![]() |
00:06:53 | And they put me on the Jugendblock which at that time - see, this was my liberation.![]() |
00:07:01 | CM: Can you show it to the camera?![]() |
00:07:03 | SI: I was liberated not far from there and I stayed with the American army.![]() |
00:07:10 | And ah, then I went to Indersdorf, I wasn't there very long, I went to Konstanz at Bodensee.![]() |
00:07:19 | I ended up in Paris.![]() |
00:07:21 | Paris - Canada, Canada - States.![]() |
00:07:25 | So since '49, I'm in the States.![]() |
00:07:29 | IV: So maybe, let's go a little bit back to past. So, for you remember very clearly to -![]() |
00:07:38 | SI: Unfortunately, yes.![]() |
00:07:40 | IV: to talk about some details.![]() |
00:07:42 | SI: Jah.![]() |
00:07:42 | IV: So, ah, you said, in Plaszow, you've been the Kutscher of -![]() |
00:07:47 | SI: No, in Tarnow.![]() |
00:07:48 | IV: In Tarnow. You've been the Kutscher.![]() |
00:07:49 | SI: Yeah.![]() |
00:07:50 | IV: And then you went to Plaszow.![]() |
00:07:51 | SI: To Plaszow, when they finished with the ghetto.![]() |
00:07:54 | We cleaned up the ghetto. The 150 Jews and I, 149 Jews and I, we cleaned up the ghetto.![]() |
00:08:02 | I had nothing to do with the clean-up because I was driving the horses and him. And his family.![]() |
00:08:09 | When they liquidated, they shipped us on to Plaszow. But I didn't stay very long.![]() |
00:08:18 | IV: Can you remember how was the situation in Plaszow for the people?![]() |
00:08:21 | SI: Terrible, terrible. I was going, ah, I had they warned that my leg from my horse stepping on me and I couldn't go to work.![]() |
00:08:33 | So the Jewish police grabbed me and were taking me to be punished.![]() |
00:08:39 | Fortunately for me, Blacher was there.![]() |
00:08:42 | And saw me coming with the police and said "Was - was machst du denn da?"![]() |
00:08:47 | So I told him: "Sie wissen doch, dass das Pferd mir auf den Fuß getreten hat."![]() |
00:08:54 | "Oh, ja ja, gehen los." And he sent me back.![]() |
00:08:58 | If not, I wouldn't have survived the beating that the SS applied to the others.![]() |
00:09:04 | And that was my luck and then, after that I volunteered and I escaped Płaszów.![]() |
00:09:10 | Because the lice were eating me.![]() |
00:09:12 | Young people were around, young children, and the moment they are around you knew - no good.![]() |
00:09:18 | At least in my mind, I knew - I don't want to stay.![]() |
00:09:23 | So I volunteered as I said, I went, nobody knew where we were going to.![]() |
00:09:28 | Ah, we thought we were going to death but I didn't care where we went.![]() |
00:09:32 | I just want to get out of Płaszów.![]() |
00:09:35 | IV: And how did you - you - you had to walk or they put you on transport?![]() |
00:09:39 | SI: On transport on freight trains. And ah, could quite a while, apparently. Mielec is not too far from Krakau-Płaszów.![]() |
00:09:49 | But it took quite a, quite a couple of nights, quite couple of days to get there.![]() |
00:09:54 | They unloaded us, they put us into barracks that they had prepared and we stayed in.![]() |
00:09:59 | Oh, there were people already there, from other camps called Budzyń.![]() |
00:10:03 | And these were mostly Jewish prisoners of war but, ah, Jews were not treated as prisoners of war, they were Jews. So.![]() |
00:10:14 | We were there, I don't know, I cannot remember the length of time.![]() |
00:10:20 | IV: Milic was kind of -![]() |
00:10:21 | SI: Mielec.![]() |
00:10:22 | IV: Arbeitslager, Arbeitslager. You had to work -![]() |
00:10:24 | SI: Oh ja, everybody had to work. There was no prisoner that didn't work there.![]() |
00:10:29 | Everybody, I worked in a "Halle", with a, I used to work in a bomber, the tanks, the fuel tanks,![]() |
00:10:41 | where they had to have shooting, ah, explosives, neets, I don't know how I'd say in German, the Nieten.![]() |
00:10:49 | IV: Nieten, yeah.![]() |
00:10:51 | SI: And we worked with the Hartkolbe and they exploded, self-exploded in the bag.![]() |
00:10:56 | That was my job at night, one week night, one week days.![]() |
00:11:02 | IV: So you remember about the food, the housing, how you -![]() |
00:11:06 | SI: The food, the housing. I mean, look.![]() |
00:11:09 | Considering, the barracks were not bad, as opposed to Flossenbürg at the end, or Płaszów, the few weeks I was there.![]() |
00:11:19 | Food was miserable, food, like everywhere else but it wasn't as bad as you got here at the end.![]() |
00:11:26 | Or as bad as Płaszów was. But it was survivable.![]() |
00:11:31 | They treated us halfly decent because we sort of helped them produce the plane. So.![]() |
00:11:40 | And we worked with a lot of Polish people and a lot of German civilians.![]() |
00:11:44 | You know, engineers, technicians, and so on. So.![]() |
00:11:48 | It was not as bad as other camps and from there on, unfortunately, they brought us here.![]() |
00:11:56 | IV: Can you remember the transport from there to Flossenbürg?![]() |
00:12:00 | SI: Sure I remember the transport.![]() |
00:12:02 | IV: Maybe you can tell us a little bit about it.![]() |
00:12:04 | SI: Well, when we left Mielec, we were going, ah, well, within the reason, normally, 60-70 people in the car.![]() |
00:12:17 | And German women and children were begging to come with us because they were afraid of the Russians.![]() |
00:12:22 | The Germans said: "No, das ist nur für Häftlinge." They said.![]() |
00:12:26 | So we left and we went through Wieliczka.![]() |
00:12:31 | Wieliczka, we were maybe two weeks, three weeks.![]() |
00:12:34 | We began to prepare in the mine, the work that we did in Mielec.![]() |
00:12:41 | But I guess it wasn't feasible.![]() |
00:12:43 | Between the Russians coming and taking all the stuff down, they decided "No", and they sent us on to Auschwitz, to Flossenbürg.![]() |
00:12:55 | IV: And then you, you went by train -![]() |
00:12:57 | SI: By train, by train.![]() |
00:12:58 | We did, the only march I had on foot, a long march, was from Schwarzenfeld on to the liberation.![]() |
00:13:06 | Those was the longest march.![]() |
00:13:09 | IV: And maybe can you tell a little bit about the transport to Flossenbürg. How many people were situated -![]() |
00:13:13 | SI: From, from, from Wieliczka there were already many people, 60, 70, 80 people in a car. Maybe more.![]() |
00:13:21 | They took us in, as a matter of fact, we were, on the train, the one guy through the, ah, little window, so-called windows, whatever it was,![]() |
00:13:34 | ah, asked the Polish railroad worker: "What does it say on the car? Where are we being shipped?"![]() |
00:13:41 | He said, he answered in Polish: "To death." That was that, so.![]() |
00:13:47 | And we came to, fortunately for us, to Auschwitz, where they couldn't take care of us, either gas chambers or anything else, they sent us on.![]() |
00:13:58 | And we ended up in Flossenbürg. Again, the ride was very long. Very long.![]() |
00:14:04 | Ah, they stopped every 20, 30 kilometres, put us on the side, so the German miliary trains could go by, to the front.![]() |
00:14:17 | But after a while we came here, unloaded, and I cannot find the station here.![]() |
00:14:25 | And, I remember the reception as, as clearly as it was yesterday.![]() |
00:14:32 | The guards with the sheperds, with the dogs, all dogs barking, all Germans screaming.![]() |
00:14:38 | And we were, for one thing, we were sitting in the train for about a week, two, I don't know how long.![]() |
00:14:45 | Coming off the train was like, and all of a sudden, here these, these people, the guns, the dogs.![]() |
00:14:53 | And they walked us here, to Flossenbürg. And they kept us then in this isolation for a week.![]() |
00:14:59 | IV: And in the beginning, you had to go the this Häftlingsbad -![]() |
00:15:02 | SI: Ja, ja, ja.![]() |
00:15:04 | IV: Do you remember, maybe try to -![]() |
00:15:06 | SI: Yeah, we went, after the isolation, they took us to baths, stark naked as we were and they gave us uniforms.![]() |
00:15:15 | And shirts and, I don't remember if underwear, I don't remember, wooden clogs, wooden shoes.![]() |
00:15:22 | And then they assigned, they registered us.![]() |
00:15:26 | And they assigned me to the block 19, it was Jugendblock.![]() |
00:15:31 | At first, it wasn't too bad, they kept the promise at least,![]() |
00:15:36 | they told us we will get extra bread and extra soups which we got for a month or two.![]() |
00:15:41 | Then our situation got bad, worse. They had more prisoners coming in.![]() |
00:15:46 | They had the Polish prisoners coming in, that had the uprising in Warsaw.![]() |
00:15:51 | They had other people coming in, you know, you committed a crime as a labourer or you flirted with a girl, whatever it was, so, they brought them here to.![]() |
00:16:03 | So, the barrack got tighter and tighter.![]() |
00:16:07 | They brought Italian kids whose families were, ah, with me slept on my Pritsche.![]() |
00:16:15 | A young boy, an Italian boy whose father was a general.![]() |
00:16:19 | And his division surrendered or went over to the allies.![]() |
00:16:23 | So the rest of his whole family and he came to Flossenbürg.![]() |
00:16:27 | He did not survive.![]() |
00:16:29 | Cause as we talked about, Flossenbürg was very cold.![]() |
00:16:31 | Barracks were certainly not heated and you didn't have much of a cover. So.![]() |
00:16:37 | He lived about two months. He died right on the bed.![]() |
00:16:43 | IV: And in day-time, you had to work -![]() |
00:16:45 | SI: We had to work six days a week, sometimes seven if they decided that we are to carry stones from one place to another.![]() |
00:16:53 | They made us work on Sunday.![]() |
00:16:55 | But we had to work six days a week.![]() |
00:16:58 | I was fortunate enough, I didn't work in the quarry, we worked the assembly, wing assembly for Messerschmitt. So.![]() |
00:17:08 | We were dry and not too bad. We were so-called technicians, we knew the job, I mean, so.![]() |
00:17:16 | IV: Because you already had -![]() |
00:17:17 | SI: Had, that's right, in Mielec.![]() |
00:17:19 | IV: In Mielec. This kind of work... And had also some of the young people, of the youth block, they had to work in the quarry or - ?![]() |
00:17:26 | SI: I don't, I couldn't tell you, I don't remember.![]() |
00:17:29 | Although I spoke to a Czech man, now, with a picture, who was a couple of years older than I, he was on the block.![]() |
00:17:37 | And he said, he worked in the quarry, so it's possible.![]() |
00:17:40 | I don't know, I had to stay with my group to march out to the halls here to -![]() |
00:17:46 | IV: So, how have you been treated here, in your block, the Blockälteste, the Kapos?![]() |
00:17:51 | SI: The Blockälteste was a criminal, and they know the name, I don't, I didn't even know his name.![]() |
00:18:00 | He was called Herr Blockältester. Was old, grey-headed man.![]() |
00:18:04 | And his assistant as a Blockälteste was a nice, young Czech man.![]() |
00:18:11 | I had the misfortune of staying on the German side.![]() |
00:18:15 | So if any infraction, he slapped you around and beat you, kicked you.![]() |
00:18:19 | We stood on the Appellplatz, being counted.![]() |
00:18:22 | If God forbid, we were miscounted and they thought that somebody ran away, which was almost impossible, ah, we got, we could stand on the Appellplatz for a whole night.![]() |
00:18:34 | First, he counted, then the Germans came to count and nochmals and nochmals.![]() |
00:18:40 | And then, maybe by two o'clock they let us in and by five o'clock, we had to go back to work.![]() |
00:18:47 | So it was, wasn't very nice. It was not a nice time to spend.![]() |
00:18:53 | IV: So did you see any executions or torturings?![]() |
00:18:55 | SI: Yes, yes, executions.![]() |
00:18:58 | The official executions that we have seen, was, there were six Russians.![]() |
00:19:03 | They were prisoners of war, young boys.![]() |
00:19:07 | Never forget it, on the Appellplatz, they put their scaffolding.![]() |
00:19:12 | And they hang them all at the same time. We had to watch.![]() |
00:19:15 | What their crime was, I don't know.![]() |
00:19:20 | And I don't know that anybody knows. Whether they tried to escape or they tried to kill a German. I have no idea.![]() |
00:19:27 | But they were executed. But people were executed, beaten, for no reason at all.![]() |
00:19:33 | You had to take your cap off when an SS-man passed.![]() |
00:19:38 | Sometimes he didn't like you taking your cap off, he beat you up.![]() |
00:19:42 | You didn't take it off, they beat you up, so.![]() |
00:19:46 | They knocked my tooth out because I wasn't fast enough to take my cap off.![]() |
00:19:52 | That's, that's how it was in Flossenbürg. And ah..![]() |
00:19:59 | IV: Remembering this time here, what do you think was, what was the hardest and terrible thing for you?![]() |
00:20:04 | SI: Everything.![]() |
00:20:06 | From people laying next to you and not waking up![]() |
00:20:10 | to people going to work and dying while marching to work or coming back.![]() |
00:20:15 | These were mostly young people.![]() |
00:20:17 | I spoke to a Polish man, cause I speak Polish,![]() |
00:20:22 | and asked him: "What do you do here?" Since he was here, I told you the story, he was here with his 39-year-old father who perished here.![]() |
00:20:30 | Perished from hunger, from Typhoid, from God knows what.![]() |
00:20:36 | And as the kids died in my block,![]() |
00:20:39 | they put them into the latrine and then the people came and collected them to the crematorium.![]() |
00:20:45 | There were everyday, every single day, there were bodies,![]() |
00:20:48 | brought to the, ah, what was it called, the bathroom, the bathroom, no, the latrine.![]() |
00:20:57 | And, that's where they laid there while we washed ourselves.![]() |
00:21:03 | So you lived and died with death.![]() |
00:21:06 | IV: So and there also was, we just passed the Krankenrevier.![]() |
00:21:11 | SI: Yeah, I was there twice.![]() |
00:21:13 | Once I had my testicles frozen.![]() |
00:21:16 | I couldn't walk, they were so big. I couldn't walk, they put me there.![]() |
00:21:20 | And once I had this thumb, I got a piece of aluminium![]() |
00:21:24 | and they debated whether they cut my hand off.![]() |
00:21:27 | And I started crying "Don't cut my hand off. If they, you cut my hand off, I'm dead. They will kill me, I couldn't work."![]() |
00:21:35 | So this French doctor did this, cut off and cleaned it up.![]() |
00:21:43 | And I stayed a few days.![]() |
00:21:45 | While staying there, they made me carry food from the SS-kitchen![]() |
00:21:50 | which was there in Kommando, Kommandantur to this prison that they had here.![]() |
00:21:56 | You know, they had a lot of big people. Schuschnigg, Canaris, I don't know.![]() |
00:22:02 | And we carried food to them and we carried food to a Hurhaus that was here to be used by prisoners mostly Germans.![]() |
00:22:11 | And then when more people came, they were not Germans, they allowed certain people, Czechs, not Poles and not Jews.![]() |
00:22:19 | Czechs, I think, the French, if they wanted to use the Hurhaus.![]() |
00:22:24 | And these women, the poor women, were all prisoners but forced into prostitution.![]() |
00:22:32 | IV: And the people who went there, they had some money to pay the whores?![]() |
00:22:36 | SI: Well, they paid, they paid people, not the Jews.![]() |
00:22:40 | They paid people three or four marks a week or month or I don't know whatever.![]() |
00:22:45 | They had a canteen, the canteen was for everybody but not the Jews.![]() |
00:22:50 | So, with that money, they could either buy in canteen whatever, I don't know, cigarettes, maybe chewing gum or something like that.![]() |
00:23:00 | And - or go to the house, to the Hurhaus, and pay for that.![]() |
00:23:06 | So. Choice was theirs.![]() |
00:23:09 | IV: Okay, wie weit sind wir mit der Kassette, bevor ich eine neue Frage stelle?![]() |
00:23:17 | SI: So silly.![]() |
00:23:21 | IV: Yeah.![]() |
00:23:22 | SI: Okay, we marched out on a Monday, I think, it was April 16th.![]() |
00:23:28 | Or April 17th. I think 16th.![]() |
00:23:33 | We were all standing on the Appellplatz. The whole camp.![]() |
00:23:36 | And they yelled: "Juden raustreten!"![]() |
00:23:40 | Well, first of all, the night before,![]() |
00:23:42 | they took Russian prisoners and they executed them, someplace. We heard shots.![]() |
00:23:48 | We didn't know where.![]() |
00:23:49 | So, then they said: "Alle Juden raustreten!"![]() |
00:23:53 | So, I tried to sneak my way in to stay with the non-Jews.![]() |
00:23:57 | Little Polish kid, "Hey Jude - they call you!"![]() |
00:24:01 | So I had to go and we marched to the station,![]() |
00:24:04 | wherever the Flossenbürg station was. ![]() |
00:24:08 | And they had these open cars, flat cars.![]() |
00:24:11 | And they put us up there and we went a few kilometres. ![]() |
00:24:16 | And fighters came, American fighter planes, shot up the locomotives.![]() |
00:24:20 | In between they took few of us,![]() |
00:24:23 | because, you know, a plane cannot see exactly,![]() |
00:24:26 | are they prisoners or are they not prisoners?![]() |
00:24:29 | So they shot up.![]() |
00:24:31 | And they brought new locomotives and we went another few miles and boom, again the same thing.![]() |
00:24:36 | Till by Schwarzenfeld, the Germans had enough and they started marching us out.![]() |
00:24:42 | And we marched till we were liberated, my group went, was led, we were, first of all, we were marching at night.![]() |
00:24:53 | Because they were afraid of the planes.![]() |
00:24:57 | And they took us in, into a forest, at dawn, after the march.![]() |
00:25:04 | And we thought that's it, we get executed there.![]() |
00:25:08 | But most of our guards were ex-prisoners, that means Germans, gypsies, and some Ukrainians.![]() |
00:25:19 | They gave them - they swore their allegiance.![]() |
00:25:23 | And they got uniforms and guns and they were our guards.![]() |
00:25:26 | And some of them were the biggest bastards, bigger than the SS, so bad.![]() |
00:25:31 | And we, on the 23th of April,![]() |
00:25:35 | we saw in the morning, when they brought us into the forest,![]() |
00:25:39 | they began to throw bullets out of their bullet, you know, cases.![]() |
00:25:46 | And, all of a sudden, nobody there, no guards.![]() |
00:25:51 | IV: They run away?![]() |
00:25:53 | SI: Disappeared. Like - and I had some friends that, we were held together from Mielec still.![]() |
00:26:02 | And they were older, so I decided, we better move out of here.![]() |
00:26:08 | So I got my guys and we started marching in.![]() |
00:26:11 | And nearby, was a town, and up the hill, where we were going,![]() |
00:26:18 | was a German Major with a Panzerfaust.![]() |
00:26:21 | And with a pair of binoculars, so, I came over, I spoke decent German.![]() |
00:26:27 | And I said "Major, wir bitten um Erlaubnis, in das Dorf rein."![]() |
00:26:32 | He got scared, says: "Okay, I'm coming with you."![]() |
00:26:38 | Because he wanted to surrender.![]() |
00:26:40 | And he was with us, he hoped that he won't get killed.![]() |
00:26:44 | And we went into town, he got taken prisoner.![]() |
00:26:48 | And we got food thrown from each and every tank that passed.![]() |
00:26:54 | I told my boys not to eat.![]() |
00:26:56 | We went to a farm house, the farm woman thought we were going to kill her because![]() |
00:27:03 | I mean, we, we, were prisoners...![]() |
00:27:07 | And ah, all I asked was some food, she made us some eggs, she gave us some bread.![]() |
00:27:14 | We washed ourselves, we had no other clothes.![]() |
00:27:17 | Since I was a bit wounded, they put me in a field hospital with the American army.![]() |
00:27:23 | And they took me, I stayed there, I,![]() |
00:27:26 | with the officer was next to me, a Lieutenant, and he took me![]() |
00:27:31 | after he got well and I did, to the company he was with, which was the division that liberated us.![]() |
00:27:37 | And I stayed with him, for - till they were going home.![]() |
00:27:41 | They wanted to smuggle me to the States.![]() |
00:27:44 | I did not want me smuggled.![]() |
00:27:46 | I wanted to be coming to the States as a free person.![]() |
00:27:49 | And so the UNRRA came, I don't know how they knew about me and my friend,![]() |
00:27:55 | and they took us to Indersdorf.![]() |
00:27:57 | At Indersdorf, I stayed a very short period of time, whether it was three or four weeks.![]() |
00:28:02 | And then I met somebody on the train who was looking for me.![]() |
00:28:06 | My cousin was liberated and stayed in Konstanz,![]() |
00:28:12 | was, ah, there and his mother and sister. ![]() |
00:28:16 | They were all liberated then.![]() |
00:28:19 | And we went from there to Paris.![]() |
00:28:21 | And Paris to Canada, Canada - the States.![]() |
00:28:26 | IV: So maybe you can give us some details of the march.![]() |
00:28:31 | So, how, when you remember how big the group was you left in Flossenbürg, how many reached -![]() |
00:28:37 | SI: Ah, Flossenbürg, the Jews, probably four or five thousand, I assume.![]() |
00:28:41 | I don't know, you know we didn't count, we marched out and we thought this is it, the end.![]() |
00:28:47 | When they took us on the cars, each car, flat car had about 50, 60, maybe 100 people.![]() |
00:28:55 | With four guards on each flat car.![]() |
00:28:59 | And we rode, as I said, to Schwarzenfeld, this was the distance.![]() |
00:29:04 | And I don't remember how far it is.![]() |
00:29:06 | I couldn't tell you if it's 20 kilometres from here, or 50 kilometres.![]() |
00:29:10 | But not far, and from there, we began, they put us in as groups, you know, like we, the younger people,![]() |
00:29:18 | so-called because we were 14, 15 and 16, marched as a group.![]() |
00:29:24 | And we marched out and we marched through towns through.. In the middle of the night.![]() |
00:29:32 | Some kids threw stones at us.![]() |
00:29:36 | Some women try to offer us food, threw food at us.![]() |
00:29:40 | But the German guards warned them if they do it, they would be marching with us. So.![]() |
00:29:45 | And it rained, terrible weather, terrible, every single day.![]() |
00:29:50 | Rain, rain and snow, rain.![]() |
00:29:53 | Till we got to this place we were liberated.![]() |
00:29:56 | IV: What happened to the people that were to weak to walk?![]() |
00:29:59 | SI: Shot, shot.![]() |
00:30:01 | The army claimed that they found us, following the Leichen that were laying on the streets.![]() |
00:30:10 | And a lot of us, a lot of them were buried at Schwarzenfeld, for instance.![]() |
00:30:16 | And all the places where they collected the bodies and buried them on the spot.![]() |
00:30:21 | I understand from the director here now that they had to exhume the bodies![]() |
00:30:29 | and bring them here to Flossenbürg.![]() |
00:30:33 | That's all I know.![]() |
00:30:34 | And then we had people that couldn't walk.![]() |
00:30:40 | They said, they just gave up, sat down and says: "Okay."![]() |
00:30:44 | They were shot.![]() |
00:30:45 | Other people dropped dead, so.![]() |
00:30:49 | We probably, by the time we were liberated, our group was relatively lucky.![]() |
00:30:54 | We were younger, we were still, we could still march and keep up.![]() |
00:30:58 | Few of the kids dropped out, very few, but some.![]() |
00:31:02 | But we saw other groups that passed us or, terribly decimated, terribly. So.![]() |
00:31:11 | IV: Ah, well, seeing all this, this long time, yeah, how did you feel, seeing the people dying beside you?![]() |
00:31:23 | SI: Oh, you know, you get, the will of survival makes you steely, makes you forget that you're a human being.![]() |
00:31:35 | You kept on marching, you kept on living.![]() |
00:31:39 | I know to you it may sound abnormal.![]() |
00:31:43 | But you know, when you are treated as an animal, you become like an animal and that's what we were.![]() |
00:31:50 | The will to survive was paramount and this..![]() |
00:31:54 | No matter how many bodies on each side, no matter who died.![]() |
00:31:58 | Maybe you felt badly if a friend or maybe a family member, but other than that, you were just.![]() |
00:32:05 | The will to live was very strong. So.![]() |
00:32:09 | We lived through it.![]() |
00:32:10 | IV: And the day of liberation, what kind of feelings came up in this moment?![]() |
00:32:14 | SI: Very, very - I cannot describe it.![]() |
00:32:17 | I thought they were Russians.![]() |
00:32:19 | Since I spoke a little Russian, because I was here with Russians.![]() |
00:32:24 | Because we saw stars on the tanks, white stars.![]() |
00:32:27 | And on the back of the tanks, they had red covers.![]() |
00:32:31 | So we thought they were Russians, we didn't know America was at war.![]() |
00:32:34 | I, the, the, exaltation of being free was unbelievable.![]() |
00:32:41 | And I mean, you cannot describe it.![]() |
00:32:44 | No human being that wasn't there can describe the feeling of all of a sudden sort of not having guards, not having to die, not having to suffer anymore.![]() |
00:32:56 | It's something that will always live with me, the rest of my days.![]() |
00:33:01 | IV: Because a lot of people -![]() |
00:33:04 | CM: Stop!![]() |